The Weaponization of Brady and Giglio: A Law Enforcement Officer's Perspective

Hey, I'm really glad to have Craig fry On today. I met him and worked with him at the ATF Task Force. I think it's kind of funny the Viper Task Force, all the hiss and bullshit we used to do. But anyway, got a great story to tell. How many years in law enforces did you have? Seventeen? All right, so just talk about, you know, kind of where you grew up and everything and how you got into law enforcement, and then we'll get into like what we really want to get into, which is what it's like take on the federal government and get stomped on in the process. Right, Okay, Well I actually graduated from Salem High School. Okay, so that I grew up in Roanoke. Man, I did everything I was from slave labor to to had my own business race cars. So I did a lot of stuff. But there was always this drive that I wanted to be a copy But I was five foot nothing than one hundred and nothing, so I thought that would be no shot. And I tried. I tried to get on for ron Ook City. I had long hair. It wasn't accepted back the. No, no, it was not accepted. I was a great mullet, but there was not excestent, but I went through it. I did everything physical, agility, corpse, all that stuff, and and the guy, uh, the guy running it, looked at me and said, son, you'll probably never be a cop. I'm sorry. And I thought, well, now that's a challenge. And uh. I tried a couple of the agents caies throughout the years and decided that that's what I really want to do. So I put myself through New River Academy in Radford, and I had this pre employment program and I went through it and I was I was number two in academics and graduated top gun out of the academy and then from that what year was that two thousand and one, two thousand and two into two thousand and one two and then I went to Radford City as a police officer. They picked me up outside of the academy. What was it light to work in Radford City? Man? That town. You know, if you don't live in Radford or around there, you don't know that town. It is small town but had its big city problems. But then you had the college and that's a whole different crowd of kids. So like when you say big city problems. What are you talking about. It had its drug connections to some major drug dealers, execution style murders for the drug dealers. It's a rough town. It could be a rough town, but then. The rest of the week it might be a good week, and. Then the resta rica was a decent week. And then you had all the college kids and then all. The college kids. Holy cal I think the if I'm not mistaken, the seven eleven up there was the number one alcoholic sales in the country. Yeah, that's because everyone's twenty one that goes to college. Right, yeah, right, Yeah. There was a that was an interesting town to work in. And so you so you worked there and then you ended up where. After about three years there, I switched positions with a lady that was inventing. Okay, so the town event and I went from Radford to Venton and she went from Venting to Radford and I lived in Roanoak. So driving to Radford was a little bit of a driver challenge every day. You know, after twelve fifteen hour days you have to drive home. That got challenging. So I just went to Radford. From Radford to town event. All right, it's talk about your career in venting and then how you ended up at DATF Task Force. So Amanda Harmon was the first Task Force officer the Venton did and she lasted a couple of years and then she moved on to a different career altogether, and that position came open. I told Chief Cooley at the time, I'd love to do it, and he put me over there. So talk about Venton. Venton's always been like an interesting town because it seems like it's just kind of like the runoff from Roanoke City and then you have the competition of Roanoke County, So what was that like? So we always joked that it was just an extension of Southeast ruining up okay, because it used to be everybody owned homes in the town event and then it slowly became rental properties and then those problems came with that. So another busy town, another busy place, running wide open. All right. So talk about So you were talking about some of the bigger things that you saw in Radford City, So how does that relate once you get to ATF Because I think that's one of the I think the first time you walk in that building and you realize, like it's a lot bigger and where I came from, I mean it had an elevator and everything, your own parking garage. It was crazy. So from Radford to Vinton, I was, I don't know who the author is, and I forget. We wrote a book about the one percenters and cops, much like the one percenters of motorci games. It's a one percenters and cops, just in a different context. Yes, and those one did the ones that do the work. I want to do the work. But you know, you have the one officer who could do three hundred and ten traffic stops and write five hundred tickets in a week, and and that's it, right, And then you have the one percenters that would do five traffic stops, get a pile of drugs wanted people. It's just that luck that everything would fall in front of that officer. I want the supervisor. And Rafford used to call me fall into it fry because every time he would pull up, somebody was handing me a bag of drugs. But don't you think based on your experience with that, and we had somebody did a int addiction work in here not long go. I think it really does just paying attention and learn how to talk to people. Exactly right, paying attention. And that's why I said, growing up I did everything. I really think how I lived my life up to that. Point prepared you to deal with a lot, deal with a whole lot. Yeah, okay, really did. Uh. One of the things I did prior to being a cop is I worked as a manager in a We didn't have bars in Virginia. We have restaurants that serve alcohol, but in basically a nightclub, and and that debt. You had to deal with a lot of drunk people, right, and actually the physical altercations and stuff it came with that, and all that led up to I think how I was a police officer and what I found and do and would rest and. We see a lot. I think you see a lot, and you see you see people at their best when they walk in and probably at their worst when you're dragging them back out. That's exactly right. So all right, So think about the first day that you ended up at the ATF Task Force. You're in, You're in, Uh, You're surrounded all this information at your fingertips, working as far as you want to go. Talk about that? What was that like? You know what to expect. I tried to somewhat dress up. Could you wear a suit? No? No, no suit, but but very business casually. I didn't know what to expect. I walked in this office and one of the first things they said was, Man, you ain't gonna wear stuff like that. You can wear jeans and a T shirt if you want to. You're like, what, like, oh, so it was I didn't know what to expect, right. I had a little bit of insight because Amanda was a good friend and she would kind of tell me. But I had no idea what to expect. I don't think anything can prepare you for that, like the ax, the amount of information that's available if you know where to look, and just just the how far you can extend out with cases. Once you get into the federal system. Never you know you have your the i's there to office, the investigator analysis, and then the people on that side you could give them a name, and then then a week later you'd. Have and this is before and this is before media, and I think that's it. I think this was I think when my experience with ATF in the federal system was like you said, like the volume of information they could collect and in a very short period of time. It was almost like social media before you had it as far as the amount of associations you can have with different people in the kind of cases you can build exactly. And I was in d C. And this is probably jumping ahead, but I was in DC when the Channel seven and one of my specialties that I did at the ATF, I won't say specialties, one of the things I was saddled with because I did it and learned how to do it. So then it was my job is I would contact the phone companies and ping phones. Okay, So. I'm an awards ceremony in Washington, d C. When we get the call, I have to leave this award ceremony to go in the jasock. Now I'd been d ATF for quite a while at this time, but it never ceased to amaze me. So I go into JAYSCK, which is Third Intelligence Center. I'm basically by myself in a huge room with a forty football TVs in front of you phones, and it's just. It's like it's from TV and you're like is this real? You're like you're watching FBI episodes and you're like, there's none of that's real. Well, I'm setting in this office that looks pretty similar to right, and I'm on the phone trasing the the bad guy that was that shot, and he was running from him, and and I was relating back to agents. So I had two phones, cell phone to the cell phone company and then the landline to the agents, and and they're chasing him up the interstate and that's he ended hisself before they got to him. So I think one of the things that I think is most interesting about working cases is just the just the amount of information you can collect and how far you can push a case. Talk about can you talk about any of the cases that you did that just started with like a gun or a quantity of cocaine or anything else that ended up outside of the state and all these different connections. Yeah. We we had a gun theft case in Martinsville, Mike Selenow and a few others. Because they actually broke in a gun store and stole a ton of guns. A ton of guns, and we started tracing those and that case let us we were basically out for three days straight and that led us to several different states, and you know, as a local cop stuck in your little three or eight mile you know, were little bubble. That was interesting that that badge would carry you. Everywhere, everywhere you needed to go. I think one of the things that ATF does really good is I remember those lead sheets, and I think you probably were one kicking lead sheets back to us to go out there in the field and do follow up interviews. I think they're very, very efficient with assigning and just assigning it, figuring out what people are good at, and then they're collecting that information and dumping into a big pot. I mean for investigative file. I think Terry Henderson started that could be wrong, but I or at least perfected that aspect so that he was Yeah. And when you go to a mass event somewhere, be it tech or when the trooper was shot in Floyd or just anywhere, everything, Every major event ATF was always called they don't get the news media, you know, they're not the heroes. But every big event and you always would go. And I think it's such chaos that you got to have it controlled and then it becomes controlled chaos and then you can always work with it. And Tho's lead sheets are huge. You know, you got a group of guys ready and eager to do something. You've got to give them work. You gotta give them work, and so I think ATF was really good at at organizing that and then sending people out. So talk about that. I think. I think one of the things people don't realize is that ATF was a lead agency on the Virginia Tech shooting and that was before we had a lot of mass shootings. Were you there when that happened? No, I came to after. I was at Tech because of that, and I think most local officers were there. But so you didn't come till right after after that, so you didn't see that machine working. I didn't see that machine at Tech working. But I got to deal with the aftermath that that of basically the fallout because I think ATF and State Police had UH. Had a little pisson contest. I think they've worked it out, but I did. I do think that. I think that's what's really difficult. And I was talking to an agent with an alphabet agency not long ago, and I think one of the things that you learned over time is it really involves the individual. Like what you said, the one percent, Like you could have an agent from one entity and then that's your impression of them and you're like, they really suck. But I've always found most of the ATF agents are like, have the background, local service, and then they go in and those dudes are they're relentless and going after people, especially back in those times. I remember going to dambling places like that with gun crime. I mean, they were efficient scooping people up and not going after like despite what people say, like, well, it's just they're just after the law about access, and it wasn't that back when we were there. It was Okay, there's a correlation between violent crime and the guns that are being stolen taken and the gangs that are operating those and that's who y'all targeted. We most people only hear the negative of the ATF, but most of the guys, I remember there was only twenty four hundred agents at the time when we were there, after full staff that twenty and most of the agents you meet were not anti gun, were not. You really didn't know the political affiliation. You were just there doing a job and they had a background and you could obviously tell who came from a police background and who was straight straight out of college and at least at the ATF. It very very active members doing this stuff, but you would after the worst of the worst. Ironically, I was just talking to a young man a few minutes ago and he was telling me the story that he got visited by the ATF. And he was a completely straight kid who built a ar that was illegal. Ain't know any better. He just built it, bought all stuff, he builds it. He takes it to a local gun range and somebody didn't come to him and say, hey, that gun's illegal. They went to the ATF okay, which they have to follow up on. So the ATF then has to follow up on and they go to him and tell him and this is from him, his version, right. They go to him and he is petrified and and and they say, we're not we're not after you, We're we're I know you messed up. We'll take that. It'll be done with, over with, and you have to worry about it, and then this would be learning experience for you. And that kid was expecting the worse and came out with with nothing. You know, he could have been ten years in jail for an illegal gun, but he. So talk about I know one of the things that we did when we were down there, and I think, how many years did you go to Martinsville for the race? Oh gosh, did you like that assignment or was that like one that you're like, uh, I don't know. It was exciting the first couple of times, and then it was freezing cold and monotonous. It was it was either really hot or really cold. Really hot or really cold. You can find one of their generators at the pit crewise stay beside exhaust to stay warm. It was that cold. Or I think my experience, which I think was the last one I went to, was getting their equipment off the top of the press box and there's no fence around where they set their stuff up at and a big gust to wind, and I was like, this is how it's gonna end. I'm going off the roof in Martinsville and I figured like this this is the end. And luckily I don't even remember who was up there with me, and they're like, I think we're gonna scoop back a little bit because I shent. Two guys down from Richmond usually to do that. Yeah, but we had to collect it. Then we had to collect the technical guys. The technic guys put it up there, which they must have been. They must not have been afraid of heights, because they were like right on the edge of that they had like secured down. But I was like, the next one, I'm low crawling out there. I'm I'm not standing up and having another gus. I'm sure I wasn't as close to the edge as I thought, but I really felt like I was gonna get blown off that roof. Yeah, I don't think people realized that, you know, ATF would take their dogs to every race and check for explosives. I don't think people know the entire duties that the ATF carry out. You only hear the negative. Yeah. And then I went into places in Martinsville that the average person couldn't go and learn stuff about racing that I didn't know, and it was it was fun, but the last time I was there, I was freezing. And then we had an active shooter in Floyd and I volunteered to leave. I'll tell you how much I had. That makes sense. So what was the active shooter in Floyd? Was it just a kid or was it just somebody that y'all were looking for. No, I think it was a trooper. That got shot through the back of the neck, didn't didn't count he did, okay, But I believe that's the one that happened that we left for the main There was two of them there. I can't remember which one. So talk about like, what does it look like you talk about organizing chaos? What does that look like when you arrive on saying and you had several hundred guns missing? It was close to a hunter or was it more on that gun. It was a lot of guns missing. It was a bunch we wind up, so we take over it. Now the ATF license in side, which is a whole different than the firearm side, the regulatory side. Yeah, the regulatory side, they they come in and do a complete audit and then they tell you how many guns are missing. So they come in and they take over that part of it, which is great because then you can come in and do the investigation part of it. So it's not like working with a B and E at somebody's house where they're like, I don't have the serial numbers. Y'all had the serial numbers out the gate correct? It was if the firearms dealers doing what they were supposed to, and most of them, yeah, you have serial numbers, type model, make everything about that gun, and then you know, Unfortunately for a firearms dealer has a big inventory, you can't walk in and say, all right, I got three of these missing two of these, so you have to have them to do an audit to tell you exactly what's missing. It was a big store, it wasn't a small store, and. We and we wound up recovering if I'm not mistaken, all of them. The last of the last bunch we traced down to a wooded area behind and a rest stop in South Carolina. So the people that stall it was what two or three people that were involved are on the actual theft, gosh, it was three. Now I was involved on the end of that. Seleno's the one that did all the investigation on who didn't wear and then from that we traced down their steps. So y'all are just trying to recover again. We traced down the steps where they went and. Where they were in Maryland too, weren't you. We were everywhere in that case. Yeah, and it did end that night at at South Carolina. That was the last group of guns. They hid in a wooded area behind the rest area. Okay, that's cool. All right, So let's talk about so you were talking about getting an award when you got the all about the reporter that was shot in Franklin County. What kind of case was that? That was the Christopher Spate case in Augusta County. Do you know that case? I mean, the name is familiar. He was. The gentleman who shot eight people county. Yeah, I'm sorry, it was a match county. That was. So me and Mike Maddie, who was basically my partner at ATF for a while. He was a city officer on the task force. His story, his story would be a little different than yours when we talk about the U. S. Attorney's Office. All right, a lot different. Somebody got screwed, but anyway, different story. You both got screwed in your own way. So go ahead. So we were actually there was a missing. Baby in Roanoke City. And we were and we knew it it was deceased. We were looking in a lot of areas for this missing baby and we were looking for a body. And we had talked said, man, I just have this weird feeling I'm going to see a dead baby today. I just I couldn't get past it. Then we get the call that this helicopter got shot down in Appomatics, and so we all the whole office rushed to Appomatics and we met at the command center, and there again is the organized chaos you have atf shows up, they do their things, they tell you what to do. Tom Gallagher was the one in charge there at the time. He tapped me on the shoulder said, hey, grab you five guys, you're going to go secure the house. He didn't tell you the whole story the day. We knew a lot of it, but not the whole story. But the whole story when you got in the house is totally different. I had to step over three bodies to get to the front door, two teenagers. That's tough going the front door. And uh, I had to scare the place. It was already secured, but we had to, you know, four sides and in the in the backyard was probably a three hundred foot field. But the biggest thing for y'all is that y'all, at that point you didn't know where he was and he had he had already shot people with high powered rifles. Got the helicopter down. He shot eight different. People and so he's out running around out somewhere in the woods. It's it's dark. And there's a concern that he's going to make it back to the house, and yare y'are the stopping force to so we. Go in the house. I put a sniper in the basement. I had other guys that won in each end of the house. You could watch out, and it was a nice house. In the backyard went in the yard was a huge field three hundred yards plus and they'd had put some lights out, so they lit the field up and and during that, of course upstairs top stairs was the baby that he had killed, a four year old, And during that it's always funny, he hd booby trap the house. You know, he had a gun room that he had booby trapped. They had already. Feed that booby trap, but I learned that after I got in the house. So I was walking around to all the guys saying, hey, don't move anything, this house got booby trust. We don't know what he's done. And what really opened my eyes before he got to that was on his kitchen table was all this gear, vests and guns and bunch of stuff. I was like, man, did the guys leave this before he got here, and I know that's his stuff. All that was better than what we had, and that's the stuff he left behind. And his gun room was just amazing, all the stuff the guy had in there. And so I go downstairs where sniper was perched, and I sat on this little bench like a picnic table, but a miniaturized one. I sat down on that and they told me later that there was a like a clay war underneath that. I don't think it was active, but it was there. I'm like, oh my gosh, I didn't know that until after the fact of all that. And yeah, and it you know, they'd been dead in the house for a while, and it was getting right the right poting in the house. And so I stepped outside on the back and I was watching a field and I was beside a slide and glass door on my right, and another agent would come over and we would talk for a little bit, then he would go back and he'd come get fresh air and go back, and it this really affected me, as you can tell. But there was a mattress and I don't know why the mattress was up on the on this deck, second story up on the deck, but as mattress lean up against the wall and I had my back up against that and the door, and I was just sitting out there and you couldn't see U because the lights that they had out in the field were blind, and you even though they were three hundred yards out, still blind, you couldn't see. They brought a black Hall helicopter m to the infrared, and the only communications we had is I had a BlackBerry phone at the time, and my phone's the only one that would work. So my phone ring and the helicopter they relaying what they see, and they see him coming in the woods and it looks like he's looking back at him, and and and then he would disappear, and then then they would see him again. And the last message I got was what looked like he was running back towards the house. We have to go refuel. So that was the last message I got. So I told everybody, you just he's coming and uh. Because I think, just to like draw into what you're saying is I think people that have not been in that type of situation, it is real when you see bodies in the aftermath of what somebody has done and you know that person. I'm not trying to like compare it to Rambow and stuff like that. But like what's going through your head is if he got them, he's willing to kill if we're not on our game. One of us night, I make it out of. This right, and I you know, I told the guys inside, if anybody can't handle this, we'll switch out. And one guy said I can't do it, and I. Said, I don't blame no judgment, there no judgment. He said, I can't pick on me. You won't. It was like, nobody's gonna go pick on you. Get out. So we got him switched out as quickly as we could, and somebody else came in. And the eye opener for me was sitting on that back deck and in a very specific place. And then we stayed there all night long. And then I think at six in the morning, they had enough other men to completely surround the house to the outside right, and they let us go and uh, and they went out. He turned himself in shortly after, turned himself into the group of guys that were surrounding the entire house. I don't think I'd even made it home by then turn himself in and and uh. And during his interview, Well, we found out why he kept disappearing. He had built bunkers out past the house. Yeah, and he and he had one covered with tarps and branches and stuff, so when they would look down, he would disappear because he was going inside of there. And Johnny Blaze, coolest name in law enforcement, Yeah, sent me a picture from that bunker back towards the house, and I thought it was neat. I kind of kept the picture, and then I listened to part of his interview, and in that interview he made mentioned of you know, the voice in his head kept telling him not to shoot, and he had cops in his sight, you know, throughout the night. And and I don't know if it was me, but I know that from his bunker, the only part of the house you could. See was that mattress. There was two trees that went up and split, and in between those two trees was that mattress. So I kept that as my uh desktop. Just as a. Because life is that quick. So but yeah, that that's what we went through all that And because of that and what we did in that case, the town event actually gave me the only metal valor they've ever issued. And then they took me to d C Memal wife. So you have this storied career of service, award winning career. Yes, I got that awards. And then what happened, It went, It went sideways. For some sideways. Yeah, I've been there for about ten. Years, so you already have a track record with ATF ten and with the federal system. And they're like, you're the your work has already proven itself, correct, I was, I was, You're not like a green agent that came in. You're You've got a extensive law enforcement career to include time in the federal system, multiple indictments. Most multiple people been in federal court a lot have a history. Every two years you get your background redone. I think I had more cases than as a single individual than others at the time. And then office and it does change in the blink of an eye. I got a call from a US attorney in Harrisonburg who said, Hey, we got to go over your Giglio stuff. And the people that don't know Brady Giglio is negative stuff that can be used against you. Yeah, it's something that the defense needs to know about you that might be beneficial to their case. But it is very specific to what that is. And if you get internal complaints, if that complaint is substantiated, that's Brady Giglio stuff. If it's unfounded, that is not. But it has to be cleared. So I'll give it. An example of something that I had to disclose when I went to federal court is I had a complaint one time that involved somebody who said that I had a particular bias orientation bias, and I had to disclose that in every trial. The way it was cleared is when they did my background, they talked to this individual and he was like, no, I never felt like that at all, and so they were able to clear it. So I don't have to disclose it anymore. But that's how simple it can be. It's not like this Hey got up and lied and numerous people went to jail. It can be as simple as somebody making a statement, your department bitches out and decides not to take your back, and you're you're saddled with that for that period of time until somebody can clear it. So there's two fashts of this. I I got a complaint at my PD against me, and I was kind of fed up with a couple of people at that PD and I went and spoke to an attorney about it, gave me some options. He took my information, gave me some options, and we had a plan of what we were going to do. Right, and then I continued working. I arrested. Gentlemen, we take him to court and he gets that same attorney that I had spoke to, and that attorney, for whatever reason, came after me with the stuff that I gave him. And you can't do that, No, you can't. He should have disqualified himself. Correct. So I went to the US Attorney's office and I said, this is a this is a conflict. Well, I went to Billy Cuningham first. What should I do? He tells me what to do, So we go handle it this way. We meet with the US Attorney. At that time, I wound up at Harry quest go getting to copy of my entire personnel file, which is a no, no, don't ever volunteer that stuff. But I did it because I had absolutely nothing. I mean, I've had my complaints just like anybody else, but I had nothing to hide. It is what it is. So we do that and and and then she winds up calling the chief at the time of Herb Cooley, They figure out all this stuff is nothing. They wound up getting that attorney kicked off the case because benefit, because of the benefit, but at all the stuff I handled. There was a letter where somebody internal IPD accused me of something that of saying something that wasn't true or doing something it wasn't true. So basically line, it was a statement and a letter. It wasn't a written complaint, which was unfounded. So you have a complaint in your personnel file, the PD investigates it an unfiled This. Wasn't even that. This was just a letter where somebody complained to the chief that I had got pulled over at a traffic stop. Is what happened. I got pulled over for speeding. So he complained on that, uh his complaint, He said that I lied to the officer that pulled me over. They went and spoke to the officer. And so it was so it was didn't even a form. Of no official. But it was something that was investigated, and it was not. Investigated him the one who wrote the complaint, investigating himself. That's what made it really odd. So he didn't clear you because it wasn't beneficial. Now, no, but it didn't go anywhere else. It didn't go to a rise of level complaint. So they found that letter, which I don't even know why that existed, but they found that letter and Judge Conrad said, probably ought to disclose this. So there's your giglio issue. I got to disclose this letter, okay, whatever. So then you fast forward a couple of years to the Harrisonburg office called and said, then you go over your giglio stuff. So we go over it. And I said, and you know, every time you get a case, you you basically got to go over these gig yeos. Well, sometimes you did, sometimes you didn't. Depend on the US. Yeah, so. When the first time, when you go through all this, they say this isn't this is this isn't whatever. They then you got a plan. Well from then on out was has anything changed? Right? There? Is anything new? Yeah? Anything new other than what we discussed the last. So that was my answer. Nothing news. As a matter of fact, I even named the US Attorney's office, go speak to him. They know what the other issue is. But nothing new. So for whatever reason, that office wrote my home agency asking for my giglio stuff, which I don't know that that's ever happened. It hadn't happened before, and it hadn't happened to any other TFO. But it happened to me then. And the new chief at the time gave them all kinds of stuff, emails that I've never seen, complaints that didn't know existed, or comple that were unfounded. He turned them over as substantiated complaints. Okay, So it just exploded. From there here. I am. I didn't tell them all this stuff, and I was not forthcoming on my gig the old questionnaire, and you remember this was over the phone from somebody in Harrisonburg. But I think I think the key to think about is what a personnel file looks like for a law enforcement officer. You could you could legitimately get twenty twenty five complaints a year if you're out doing work. It's not unusual to get a significant. Number because you get accused of all kinds of stuff. Yeah, and so you have general public or somebody complaints, they assign it. Like half the time, you don't know that you're even under investigation because it's it is over. Yeah, until it's over, and they're like, hey, I just want to let you know because if it's not something that you made a statement about where they have to get your side of it, they'll just go out there and investigate the claim and then if they need to talk to you. But most of them are clear before you ever know correct. And in this case, it was stuff that like me and somebody I worked with didn't get along, and I a lot of it's probably my fault because when I find out you don't like me, I'm you know, I'm that guy. I'm going to do it again or do more of it or whatever. You're podstar, Yeah, pretty much. Well, when it comes to that, he was the drug guy. I was a traffic cop. He didn't like that I was getting drugs and he wasn't, And you're right. So he would complain that I was doing things wrong and we'd have to go sit in the chief's office and the captain would say, nope, that's good police work. Get out, carry on, do what you gotta do. So I didn't know these So this is before you went to all this stuff. All this is probably so all that stuff is probably somebody that's in competition looking for that same task force spot that you got, possibly. Possibly not more. Just he just did not care for me. So you felt the same. I didn't know him, but then once I got annoy, I didn't care. They didn't care for him either. Okay, So all this stuff showed up, and and if you read the what they send you and asking for giglio stuff, n of it didn't even apply to it that you would turn over. Right, But out of an abundance of caution you'd turn over. I guess most people wouldn't an email that you didn't know existed, that that somebody was internally complaining on you. I don't know that that's even. When you So what you're saying is is when the chief gets that email from the US Attorney's office. It is very specific what they want. They want like just. Uh that kind of stuff. That's what it's not at that point. It's just like, hey, is there anything that we need to know about? It fits this criterion and it was pretty specific. And so but the other thing is there's been a history there how many how many how long have you been on task force at that ten years? So ten years, so you've already gone through at least four of those oh yeah, And so realistically you could go. Not to mention if when you before you get on there, they send a guy out to do a very extensive background. O. Mine went to Afghanistan. Yeah, on my background, so very extensive, askant, that's crazy. No, they did. They went all the way to Afghanistan. That's what they were laughing about the fact that, like whoever pulled that assignment that went over there. Yeah, so they do an extensive background. If any of this stuff was there, he should have been given it during the initial because most of it predated that anyway. So I then get accused of not turning over this information. Well, I don't know how you turn it over. If you if you're not even aware of it. And so I met with the chief, had some several conversations with him. I'm like, just don't give that stuff up. An interim chief before him had apparently went through and got rid of a lot of old files. So the destroying documents came into an allegation, came into it. Whatever fit that, whatever fit that, Yeah, what they were trying to say it. So it turns out that they said I didn't give them information, and it turns out the information they said that I didn't give them they had. They already had it. I got it from him doing for. You when you've done when you had done your when you were discussing stuff with that attorney, and he said, get a copy of your personnel fil. They'd already had that. After I got to the ATF, I had a complaint. Well I think I had one or two while I was there the whole time. But I had a complaint. And I went to this attorney and said, hey, I got this complaint, and showed him the complaint. He said, okay, well that's Paul's what we're doing for right. Now until he figured out. Until the investigation show with him, then we'll go from there, right And then that was exonerated, and I brought him that letter and we took off back on our case again. That was the one they one of the ones they said they didn't have. I never told him about, even though he did. Even though even though they had it, I met with him. We had proof that they had it. So it boils down to whether here comes the attorney part in it. If the attorney accused you of wrongdoing and then you show them that it's actually them that's wrongdoing, they either have to double down that it's you or admit they were wrong, and then they're going to get in trouble because the allegation. Was pretty serious. So it depends on who got more juice at the time, and it wasn't me. Uh so alsomally lost my job. I got terminated at Venting for policy violation. I'm not being candid during an interview. So I'd appealed it and it went through it's all all of it's. But it originally stemmed from the US Attorney's all came. And it went through all of its channels and all the way up to a grievance panel and agree Eaven's panel. You choose somebody, the town or your agency chooses somebody, and then together they're supposed to choose a third And my panel was full of people that were somebody's I had a PBA rep out of DC. There was a chief out of Pulaski on the panel, and then a retired cervice Court judge and we had a very extensive hearing and it came out unanimously that I had done no wrong and I was ordered to get my job back. So I showed up to work the next day. At that point, had they removed you from the task force or not. Yes, I'd had been removed and sent home and my badge and gun taken and I was just in limbo, still employed. So you're you're assigned to the task force. US attorney says, this is what this is what you didn't turn over. That goes back to your department. Your department says, you're on administratively pending the outcome of this year. And then you brought in terminated. Then you go through the process of. Uh. The U. S. Attorney's Office was asked to come at my grievance panel. They gave us two answers. One was, you didn't ask properly. We didn't follow the proper procedures. But even if you did, we probably wouldn't show up anyway. We're not we're not obligating. The town asked him to come, and they said no, so they didn't. They didn't want to come. No, it wouldn't have worked that well for them, so they can just avoid it. You hold all the keys to all the gates. You can open the ones you want, all right. So I you know, I showed up in the next day to get back to work, and he sent me home again, and and and Ultimately it was it was and the best interest that I because you can't go back to work for an agency. You just got a big old fight like that. So I ultimately, even though one I got my job back old me, I resigned on the anniversary I was one was hired in Radford. So I've had nineteen years in or seventeen years in. Sorry, And it leads you to down this rabbit hole of you know, always in your mind, what could I have done? What could I have done differently? And I've talked to people smarter than me and people that could look outside in and what could I have done differently? And unfortunately, in this circumstance of how it all played out, and you're getting a very short version of a lengthy process, there's absolutely nothing I could have done. Because once a conwealth attorney or a US attorney decides to weaponize their Brady Giglio, you're going to lose because all they have to say is I'm not using you. That's it. You're not ever testifying for us again, That's it. They don't have to have proof, they don't have to have of hearing, they don't have to take in front of a judge, that's all they got to say, and that's what it boiled down to, you, I had I've done nothing wrong. My file is completely clear. But that's where it's stuck. So I think one of the things that's interesting is with police reform, one of the things that they did is they allowed that process to go a step further, which is to actually desertify officers who are in the midst of an ia and they resign or their department reports them for a list of things that gets them decertified, which includes. I had no criminal allegations against me. This was all policy and procedure type allegations like I didn't I didn't answer. So I guess the question is is it is it really? Is it really a Brady issue or is it more along the lines of, Hey, we don't want you to be here anymore, so we're going to say what you just said, which is we're not going to utilize you in court. So because we're not, and we're going to fall back on the fact that, like, you didn't follow whatever protocol or whatever. We didn't it wasn't you didn't handle it. Yeah, lack of candor. That's it. That's what they used when we answering. But what's interesting is is that not too long ago, when someone was not honest in court, the the government actually stood behind that person and went the opposite way. So so how is how does the how does the federal government decide which side to go on? Here? Here is the perfect storm that I can answer in my my experience. Okay, so the ATF has attorneys there, you're when when the ATF agents there was the ustorney's office. I wasn't the first one they came after, Okay, they came I was the fifth I think fourth or fifth in line that they came after, and the rest of them were ATF agents. So their agency backed him. And when they looked into the allegations, they weren't true, and so this person was cleared. And then they came after another one. They came after one guy who just recently got hired by the ATF and he was still on his probationary period, and he's from here. He lived in Roanoke. He got basically unheard of, but he got to stay where he lived and work when he got hired, and they came after him accused him of Giglio Brady violations. The ATF investigated, cleared him and said it went further, said he didn't do anything wrong, but then they took that kid and moved him to Richmond to get him away from the US Attorney's office here in Roanoke, just to save his career. So I guess my question, like just for me, is from your experience. So you have atf who what timeframe was this seventeen seventeen, So this is not there's no police reform going on or anything. I think the the decertification had just got passed during my process, so somewhere in there that had that had came into believe, so I never got decertified, So I guess. So from my standpoint, I guess I'm just trying to understand what what was the purpose was it? Because I know we have talked about this. Is it just that like, hey, the US attorney whoever appointed that US attorney is like, hey, what they're doing is not what we want them to do, so we're going to make their job more difficult and it gets out of hand, or is it? Because to me, it sounds like a concentrated effort to go after somebody, to create something to get to get rid of. They did they went after a group of people. The rack at the time in the US Attorney's Office had got. Into a piston count pisson con test. And and they made multiple complaints on him and he was cleared. But he got re but he got reassigned too on it. He chose but I mean, he got reassigned because he was just like, I'm not. Doing that and it chose to end his career in a different area and. He but but he had like a phenomenal career up until that. The phenomenal record. That was probably one of these smartest cops I've ever worked with. And four right, yeah, and so so what you have is way above your pay grade. US attorney who's appointed correct. And there and his assistance at the time it was an acting US attorney. Okay, did that have any bearing on? So talk about why that has a bearing? So you got to you gotta keep in mind, so the government protects its own right even though it's all the federal government, they're still in fighting internallyers. You know, the US Attorney's Office protects theirs, ATF protects theirs. And when they came after agents the ATF i A, which is guys from d C not anybody local come down and do the investigation and clear them. And then, like I said, they would move the one agent to another area, so get him away from this. When it come to me, I worked for a local agency. ATF doesn't do the investigation for me. It was up to my local agency. And when I say the perfect storm, the ATF lawyer was applying to be a US attorney in a assistant Use Attorney. Renate, so the attorney that would represent what. The attorney that should have been helping me was trying to be an attorney in that office that was coming after me. The chief of my agency was in the running for and the likely candidate to be the US Marshal, so he had no reason to have my back. He hadn't been at that agency very long. So I when it come to me, instead of going I'm not giving you all this information, let's talk about this, he just gave him everything to include. The secretary had a file on her computer of stuff just on me that they just not my not not in my personnel file. I have that copy of that, not in the chief's personnel file in his office, just on a file in the Chief Secretary's office. So all that stuff went to him, stuff that I didn't even know existed. So what kind of stuff would that be? Emails that didn't know exist? So email substantiated complaints are So when you say emails, are they emails that you sent or just emails about you? Emails about me? Were other supervisor at the time. We didn't get along, so he would complain of how I was doing my work. So basically they just took off. But that's not contained into any in a file A that you have access to, but B that you can even contest, that. Can even contest it no existed. But the US attorney's complaint on you was you didn't disclose. That closed any of that to them. And then some of the complaints that had been unfounded or more bitching than complaints that should never be in a personnel file somehow got turned over, and when they were turned over, they were turned over of substantiated complaints like I got in trouble for them, and of course that wasn't true. None of this makes it. It makes your head's been trying to keep up with this. But all the I guess my question is is like, let's compare it. So you go to ATF when what year, two thousand and eight, So two thousand and eight, those emails and everything else were they before? Most of that was before all that, yet before all that. So they did their due diligence with the background investigator. They did their due diligence with like going through your personnel file just like a new hire would go through, and. Then every two years they would renew it, make sure there's no. And so they go back through it correct. So how is it, I guess that's what you're talking about. A perfect storm is Normally the ATF lawyer would say, hey, we have gone through this process. It is from so this happened in two thousand and seven, so whatever that to your point was that your background check was done and renewed. That information should have been pulled by whoever did your background check at that point. But so got to go on self preservation. When you're in a US attorney and you make an accusation that isn't true. So you have all this stuff that they're now saying, in their opinion, is Brady Giglio information that they should have turned over. So even if you discount the stuff that I've never knew existed, there was still some stuff there, right, So I showed them that they had had that in their possession from a previous incident we talked about. And so now it's if they've determined it is Brady Giglio. So if they had it and didn't turn it over, then they're the ones in trouble. So in other words, they would have to disclose to the attorney of whoever should have the defense attorney who would have had that information and reference to your testimony every case. So I would have had they had turned over all this stuff that they say they didn't have, that they actually had to every case. So it's either that I did it wrong or they did. It wrong and they didn't want to take that. And they can't take that yet because then they could potentially lose your law life. So talk about this. So you have I mean, obviously you have a disconnect between the federal government and your local agency as far as what should have been, what wasn't turned over and everything else. But you had an independent panel, you got to select one of the three people on there. What did that panel find based on all the allegations, Because the allegations of lack of candor is what you got terminated for they have that hearing, and what happens in that. The hearing come out with a one sheet of paper. You have to wait a couple of weeks for them to officially put it out. They're official finding. Yes, and that's a long couple of weeks, I would imagine, and the funding come out and that it it paraphrase said that that I had done absolutely nothing wrong. The line in there was what the US Tourney's office is doing is quote questionable at best, was what the panel found of all this that had happened. So I was completely exonerated and cleared. So they're saying, let's just take everything else out of it. The town event and when the determination was made to terminate you, and the panel that reviewed that, they found that the allegation made by the very people who said you had done wrong was questionable. What was questionable, what what all they were doing was questionable. So you know, I had I had the supervisor that I worked for at the ATF. He took a day off work and come and testified for me, And he actually got jammed up for that apparently, even though he was off work and did it on his free time and drove his personal car and he got a couple of days at home. For he's. Yep, just like you are. So but the finding. So here's a question I have. Obviously based on your experience, you have some bad actors involved with the US attorney, the guy that was the marshal. Yeah. I so at the beginning of all, well, when it all started, my attorney, which I don't really have a lot to say good about most attorneys, but that attorney, his name is del Web. He is phenomenal and just as honest as it can be. I can't honestly. So what is his What is his take after all said and done? I probably ought not all right, but but but the bottom line is he he is of the opinion that's very similar to what the town event found, which is a questionable behavior questionable and it's not on what you. It's not question your behavior that they're talking about is it's talking about the US Attorney's office, the US So my question to you there is where are those US attorneys at Now? One of them became a judge, one of them was reassigned to the civil part off of the criminal that has its own terrible story goes along with that, they actually forced a couple out. Was that. Do you feel like the people that are leaving is an example of like, hey, you made a mistake. No, I think they were the outcast. That and the clique that's there. I think they were the outcast. So they either retired or moved on. So what So none of the people that you feel like should have been held accountable, absolutely never. They all got promoted or re assigned or moved around to protect them. Yeah. Yeah, the that's the the great irony of it all, is h My personality is if I did something wrong, ma'am, we're gonna talk about it. I'm gonna laugh about it, and you guys are gonna raise my ass for the rest of my career because I did something wrong. And that's it is what it is. I did it wrong. We'll we'll fix it next time. We'll fix it next time. We're gonna laugh about it. And with them, they have to double down and continue to lie. And I had strong words to use against US attorneys and assistant US attorneys, but there is no other way I see it. They were flat out dishonest, and the and the chief we asked him to let somebody come in. Somebody uninvolved in any of this because he had conflicts. You're trying to be the US marshal. The US government is accusing me of being dishonest. Let somebody else look at it, and he laughed. That office said no, and he did the investigation at all this And in the months that this went on, the years when it went on, I'd like for you to guess how many times I was ever officially interviewed by my department or anybody with the Attorney's office. Zero. Nobody ever spoke to me about it. And you know, you sat in court, You're sit in federal court. You've been there. You sit in court, you're you're, you're you're supposed to remain basically emotionless in there. And in one of the filings, my attorney asked him not to release stuff that wasn't true. So we asked the judge, I don't let him release this stuff. It's not true, and he basically ruled that I didn't have standing at the time to ask that. But then one of the attorneys, yous attorneys, got up and said that that in this spill that she said that I actually had destroyed documents internal at Vinton. Now I might have felt like I was a somebody, But I don't think I ever had the brass to go into the chief's office and open up a lot cabinet and remove files and tread anything out of a chief's office. But they made that accusation. In federal in federal court. Them. They also put in writing, here's a good one for you. They put in writing that I was a convicted felon and had it expunged. How was that? That's a well, first off, you can't expunge a felony conviction. You can get a pardon from the governor, but you can't expunge a conviction. And you would think the top law enforcement officer in the valley would know that. But that's what they put in writing. I have a copy of it, and that story is simple. I was actually at a business with a friend and as all good partnerships and business, though it didn't work out too well, pre danged law enforcement by many years. And he went and got a warrant for me for theft of company property, which was dismissed at preliminary hearing, and eventually I got that expunged. I kept it on my career, I mean kept it on my record, even after I got hired as a cop, just as a reminder to me wrong can go wrong. And then ultimately I said, let's just get it removed, and I had an attorney to do the expungement. Get it removed. Now if somebody it's supposed to be completely gone, but it's always remaining somewhere. But if you found out about it and you were going to release that, anybody has expunged information, you actually have to go to the circuit court and get a court order to allow you to release that information. Well that was never done. But it was in writing that I was a convicted felon. It was what he accused you of. Even if fauliing, I guess it was. It was grand theft at over two hundred dollars with at the time it was. But we're talking about we're talking we're talking about something that normally would have been handled in a civil court anyway. Yes, because it's not like you was in the late nineties you could go get a felony warrant on your neighbor or anything you wanted. It was, but even now, like the way it is now, if something like that were to happen, if you as a law enforcement officer took that complaint, you would say, this is a civil matter. You need to go you need to hire an. Attorney, completely civil. Yeah, well, any words of wisdom about dealing with the federal government. It's yes, don't okay the but. You know the thing I would like people to understand, and especially new officers that are starting up, if Brady Giglio stuff can be weaponized. A commonwealth attorney can not like an officer for whatever reason. Okay, it could be because he's just seeing the same girl, or it could be because there's an actually reason, or it could just because he doesn't like it. But if that Kalumauth attorney says you're not testifying my court anymore, your career is pretty much over. There is no course of action to correct that. Who created that though? Is that is that the. Attorneys had to because there's no That is happening all over the country now with coalauth attorneys or district attorneys doing it to officers. And sometimes it's a legitimate reason and the cops still trying to fight to keep his career, and sometimes it's petty stuff not related anything to do with law enforcement. Uh, there was a case in Northern Virginia of a that the US Tourney's Office here had did something similar to an officer and his Brady Giglo information was he cursed. Yeah, I was going to say that, But I think that's the problem is. I think that is how attorneys are interpreting what the legislator is telling them to do. And it is a to me an overreach to say it to me. One of the things that I have a hang up on because I've had experience with it is duty to intervene. People talk about that all the time. Dooty to intervene is not the next day you think and Craig, I think what you did was a little excessive. It is in the heat of the moment, I'm thinking, Craig, you're going to hurt this dude or kill him. I need to pull you off of him so that doesn't happen. And I think I think people have can have really good intent. But it's the same thing with Brady. Like they were trying to clean up law enforcement with the decertification process and everything else. But what they left out is they left out it's interpretive and the people interpreting it are people that may or may not have the best intent. No single attorney should have that power to end somebody's career if you make that allegation against somebody, and whether it's a justified allegation or not, there should be a process where somebody uninvolved looks at it and says, yeah, we agree, he's he should not be or no, no, no, no, you're something's going on here. We're not allowing that to happen. And it could be how different people interpretate stuff, but there is no process for that. And and I tried, I went as far as I could go. And then here's another good one for you to try to sue the federal government. I don't think that's possible. Well, you got to get their permission. But so in Rono or or anywhere in the western didition of Virginia, go find an attorney that will represents you against the US's office. They're few and far between, because I mean it's their careers too. Yeah, they have to they have to go have. To fight them all the time. So I went to Resting to find an attorney to sue the federal government. And and at this time it's still pending, but I'm not sure where it's going. I mean, you're talking seven years ago. Now, so that's takes some time. It does take time. Well, brother, I appreciate you coming on telling your story. I wish you the best. I know you had a great career and did a lot of good, so I appreciate you coming. Appreciate it all right, all right, thanks a lot,