All right, I'm happy to have a guest with me that I would consider the og of undercover work, especially in the Lynchburg area. Jeff Pike, I'm glad to have you on. Just talk a little bit about yourself, kind of where you grew up. Your dad's a legend, and then talking to you, I feel like you're right behind him as far as having that status. So talk a little bit. About how you grew up, you and your brother in law enforcement and having a dad that was the sheriff of wythe County. Yeah, I appreciate the enjoy it again. My name is Jeff Pike. Yeah, I mean myself and my brother. And my brother's only thirteen months younger than me, so we're basically almost like twins. Right. So I was born on Keesler Air Force Base when my father was cycling out of Vietnam, and within a few months he became a police officer, and so from I always say, have been in law enforcement since basically I was six months old. Early on. Oddly enough, myself and my brother would be exposed to things that you couldn't replicate today. We were in jails, we were here and at the range, we were allowed to shoot guns and whatnot. And when we were super young, it was a little bit more laid back. But then when my father became sheriff of Wick County and we were early twelve thirteen, fourteen year old kids, it accelerated to a crazy level of we begged our father to go out with him. So we were on as teenagers. We were on traffic stops. We were doing shakedowns or searches of the jail. We were on undercover stuff. We were at crime scenes. You know. I remember as a young man going with our father to where a gentleman had accidentally cut his head off almost with a chainsaw. And back then you called the funeral home and Garland Grosclose was the funeral home director, and they got finished taking photos of everything, and the funeral home director said, you pike boys, grab a foot. My brother grabbed a foot. I grabbed a foot. He grabbed a head in the body and we put him in the body bag. Never thought a thing about it. And how old were you then, probably thirteen or fourteen years old. It didn't think anything. It went home, watched cartoons. We were happy to go out with her daddy and do things. In high school, you know, my dad was involved in a shootout with a gentleman. Set in high school, they had the big speaker box on the wall and mister Carney, who's passed, was our principal, and the speaker went off and said, miss such and such sin cheff pike to the office. So I get there, there's since my brother. He goes, what would you do? I didn't do anything? Would you do? So? Mister Carney's smoking a pipe typical different air, right you pipe boys, sit your asses down. Okay, your daddy's done shot and killed a guy off the road here. I know how rumors are. I just want to let y'all know your daddy's fine. He's done shot and killed a man right out the road. Now everything be fine. We were like, can we leave school? We want to go down to the jail. Y'all gonna get your asses back to class. Your day's don't kill the man and that man almost killed a couple other people. Now, just because your daddy killed a man, don't mean y'all gonna get out of school. I don't want the rumors going around this school that your dad doesn't kill the man. He kept saying it, your daddy's done kill the man. How old were you then, Oh, god, thirteen, fourteen years old. Your daddy's doesn't kill the man. Yeah, And if you did that today, you'd have to have counseling. No counseling that you just went back to your next week, went to the class. By the end of the day, there've been twenty deputies. The rumors had went all over the place. And what happened was the gentleman actually he was from Baltimore and had shot a police officer up there, stole his thirty eight and I don't remember if it was a cold or Smith and Wesson, but they rotate the cylinder. The cylinder rotates opposite, so he had lined the gun up thinking it was going to land on the live round, when in fact it was going to cycle the opposite way than he thought. So it was a traffic stop. This elderly lady had been abducted and he was on pills, so he was taking her into town to the drug store to get some medication that she had prescriptions for. Random thing. He had shot and killed the police officer in Baltimore. And when my dad started walking up, so your dad stops him. Well, another deputy had stopped him and standing there talking to him. My dad believed this or not. A guy had showed up and my dad was thinking about hiring him. He'd never been a police officer, uh, and he was thinking by hiring him. They got the call, and my dad was such a hands on sheriff he didn't He told this new guy who'd never been anything, come on jumping the call with me. We're gonna go out on this traffic stop. The guy, the new guy, is setting in the front seat as my dad walks up. The guy pulls the gun out and points it to the guy's head and says, die you, son of a bitch. Clicked on an empty cylinder, and that's when my daddy shot him. And again in a different error, on the front page of the paper, they had a picture of the guy's body in the street, nothing blurred out, and the caption was die you son of a and they bleeped out, bitch, you can't make it up. And that's in with Phil, that's in with one. So again, you know me, I could tell you a million stories of things that we experienced. We would go into dispatch, and of course it was small dispatch dispatcher need to go to the bathroom. Hey, Jeff, can you dispatch for a while. Kid? Your brother anentered telephone and trying to give information. Now, yeah, I gotta go to the bathroom. Yeah we could. We could do it. We go to the jail. Excuse me, we're going to do a shakedown or search. Can we do it? Dad? Please throw me and my brother in the in the pod and lock the door with twenty twenty five inmates. And the inmates would say, these Pike boys know all the hide and play. We was reaching in the commode, We knew all the string tricks. We knew it all. So you're like, this is that was like the great Adventure. Yeah, Pike's Great Adventure. Yeah, we begged for it. And if anybody, even as little bitty kids would come up, and my dad, I think, got a kick out of it. He would go ask him what they want to be when they grow up? We want to be policemen. And it was such a naive time. I think too. As I went through my career and you see the you know, corruption and different things and different experiences. You know, in my mind, then you know the policeman was there and still should be there to help people. And I was like, you know, you could help lost people get directions to the highway, or you know, their cars broke down and you can help them. You know, that was the naivety of but we were kids. But you still I think though, with as many stories as you have of those, I can imagine you have very similar stories of your dad stepping up in the community that he served. Absolutely, you know, we got to realize our first sheriff was and I want to say his name out of respect, Bufort. It had been handed down from his father in law and that guy's daddy before him. So my father was the first truly modernistic sheriff in that he wore uniform, he was in shape, he worked out, he carried automatic, he didn't sit behind the desk. He patrolled around, He pulled people over, and if it was a serious crime, he was there. He was the one that would kick in the door or punch somebody out, or do whatever needed. You know, I was telling somebody the story the other day. We had a community where this gentleman had some mental issues and the people were complaining about the stench from the house. So we go down to this house, me and my brother, piling in with my daddy again, And so we go in this house and this gentleman's laying in the bed. He'd pooped all himself all over the house. There were dead dogs, dead riots, dead cats. You couldn't stand it. You were almost ready to throw up. And he's laying in the bed, obviously out of his mind. They were going to commit him. They had some relative. We got to get him out of here. And it was so bad, I mean literally, the floor was just covered in feces, and my dad would come outside. He said to one deputy, go get a can of gas and call the fire department. The power line was hooked to the side of the house with the old insulators. My daddy took a shotgun and blew the power lines off the side of the house. I'm not making any of this up. The fire chief comes, it's like, we can't burn this house down. My Dad's like, there's a code. I can declare this immediate public health hazard. He threw some gas in there, threw a flare in and burned it to the ground and the whole and E would think it would be outrage and shock. The community was cheering because they had been dealing with him for years. They were. They were cheering. They were like, oh my god, Sheriff Pake just saved us from this nightmare. Yes, uh, And you you know, over the years, I would get stories like that of even if it was simple things. One day I saw this elderly gentleman and he's like, how's your dad? He really helped me out one time, and I said, what happened? Well, I hired a pest control company. I won't say their name because they're a national one, and I felt like they ripped me off. And I just saw your dad mentioned it to him and then ask him for help. Didn't say nothing, just told just told him the story. Next day, this company rolls in with a guy in a suit and tying about six workers. He's like, I was stunned, and I said, guy, it's like, what's up with this? And he goes Rieff called us said if you're going to do business in our county, you better treat people fair or you'll never work here again. And he said they got it fixed. So it was little things like that. And my dad knew everybody. You know, my family seven generations in that county, and he has a tremendous memory and just knew the history, the family histories. He knew. If he taught to you, Jewett, he would go, how's your dad doing? Your mom? Now your brother, and he could tell you these details. Now Jewett's brother he got maybe killing a car wreck, or they work here, or his daddy. He knew all that saw and it wasn't because he was fake. It was just that was the thing important to Yeah, he spoke at every high school graduation, for all three high schools. He married people. The judge said, sheriff, you're here at the courthouse all the time. I can fix it where you can marry people. Thinking apparently people going from Ohio to Myrtle Beach decide in whist Full they want to get married. So he's marrying like twenty people a week. Then the horse people get wind of it. The sheriff can marry you. So he got like an old West sheriff's outfit and he did all these Western weddings. Oh that's awesome. So he would do I'd say silly, but you know what I'm saying. But it was that he was relatable. Yeah, I mean, he's gonna kick your ass if you need it, but he's also there. Yeah, he's not It's hard to describe some of the things that he did because you're going to sound like he's an asshole, right, But he was only that only came out if it had exactly he would rather swing on you or somebody was doing something mean, or you know, it was a super bad criminal. You know. It wasn't like he was billy badass. And he was a good looking man. Women loved him. Women would come up, It's the best looking sheriff we've had ever in the history of this county. I was like, Dad, you get more votes from that. He would just kind of eat it up and laugh and whatnot. Right. It was just kind of weird. And then my mom, you know, prior to right when they got married, she worked for the CIA, which is another weird aspect in my family. Okay, so so. Talk about just briefly, just talk about like what it's like to sheriff of a county and somebody that works for the agency. What is that like as a kid. Uh, My mom was very quietive about it. She never really discussed it much. She did clerical stuff and what they would do. They would come to rule Appalastia Counties to recruit workers because they didn't think they would be corrupt by the Russians or some foreign entity. So that's how she got in that position. So she was able to work from with her or she had no she worked in DC. But then when they got married, then you know, she she left the CIA. Growing up with your dad, his sheriff, it was, you know, it was odd at some points in that I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that I gained any advantage from it because my dad didn't tree you that. Yeah, the only ticket I ever got my life, my dad gave it to me that shit ain't gonna happen today. Gave you a ticket. Gave me a ticket for driving a Mocac with all license. He told me not to be on this motorcycle. My buddy had one, and uh, he gave me a ticket, and I only think there's a law. He gave my buddy a ticket for let me ride it. Uh. And you know, but he told me, you're no better than anybody else just because you're my son and I'm the sheriff. H As far as the community goes, you were always well known. Everybody knew who you were. You know, getting later in teens, if you went to a party or something. You know, it was still fairly naive that that was drinking. But you didn't see a lot of drug activity. You know. The people that did that in that era, that were just people that I didn't hang out with. So what was with it? So did you live in with Ville or you lived just outside in the campy? What was it like growing up in with phil with Field? The town's and population about ten thousand people, the county's thirty thousand people, four hundred square miles. As you got two interstates. Role that's I was getting ready to say. The weird thing is we have sixty miles of two major interstates. So traffic wise, thirty thousand cars go through per hour in our county on a normal day. It's not counting holidays. So you had more population driving through than you actually had living there. And it was, you know, just a normal Appalachia, you know. But the interstates really I think changed the dynamic. And my father, you know, he started traffic units, motorcycle units, drug interdiction, things that were totally unheard of that all the sheriff's offices do now. They all do it now. Yeah, I remember in Bedford County when Kent Roby was there, he would come down. He came down there and your guys actually came to Bedford County zactly to run an addiction to teach him how to do it, and started the canine program here. Sure, I remember when that happened. You had we had an interdiction, which was one of my favorite things to do is to do interdiction on interstate. To me, that was the funnest. That was the best job ever. That was the most challenging, like not a cat and mouse game, but just a challenge to figure things out because you know, you know, my biggest load iver got was one hundred and thirty seven kiloads from a grandma white grandma, uh not to see seven kilos of what marijuana? Three hundred and thirty pounds. I've got several key two key loads of coke, but it's not the stereotypical what you would think you're looking for. So it was this kind of you had to know your stuff and. Talk about that for a second, because I think a lot a lot of people want to look at cops and they're like they're profiling. Sure, but it's profiling behavior. It's not profiling the color or anything. No what it is. And there was like Robbie Bishop that was killed down in Georgia came up and trained and we would do things like setting in the median and very visible and you would watch the cars after they passed you, and then they would be if typically if somebody's you know, got a big load of dope, they're looking in the rearview mirror and then that's when they cross the line and gives you the piece. Bigger, the bigger the reaction exactly so, and you're pull them over and it's a regular person, you know, you have hey, you cross the line, are you okay? And you cut them loose with a warning. You know. Sometimes it's just the amount of numbers. You're pulling over lots of vehicles and you eventually and then sometimes it's stupid. You know. I had some guys from Kentucky came through it ninety five miles an hour on the interstate, the suspended license and they had I don't know how many ounces of coke and like twenty pounds of weed in the truck. So not the brightest criminal. So it's a lot of it's just the amount of numbers, right, you know, you're out there pulling over people and not only are you doing traffic, but you know the little science to look for and how to deal with people. And the majority of the big loads I've gotten were consent searches. So talk about that. I think people a lot of times think you know that you try to like I don't want to say get your way into a car or anything else, but realistically, law enforcement, good law enforcement, is communication exactly, And so talk about what communication does in a traffic stop to get you to the point where you get the consensor. Well, I think you know from the start is to be professional and you're not a jerk about things, because that's not gonna get you anywhere. And I'm not saying kiss people's butt, but you know, yes, sir, how you doing today? You know, then you get them to a point where you know, you step out for Met's talking, we're doing the ticket or whatever wanting I'm giving you a warning. Hey, look, we got a lot of trouble. And I've interviewed these people after the fact and they feel like if they give you consent that you're not gonna look. And I've taken a lot of people to jail that said. I've given consent before and the cop just went, I appreciate it, and they think in their mind, if you give them consent over there, yeah, So you know, it's this kind of a psychological thing of uh. You know, I just I never had any problems with it. I have had just a handful of people hang up and go, no, I'm not giving you a consent. But if I had enough, then you could get a canon. The problem is back in the day you didn't have any canons, and if the wait was too long, you couldn't justify keeping them there. So so the thing I think about with with what you're talking about, and with with UH searches and talking to people on the side of the road, I think what I think is really cool about it is you talk about your traffic stop with all that weight in marijuana. It was it was a grandma yea, and so like it's not your traditional traffic stop, And so what you're keying off of is their reaction to your questions and how how they interact. Well, she was fairly easy other than her appearance. And here was the easy part. Vehicles are rental. It's rented in somebody else's name. I'm holding the rental agreement. She can't tell me who that person is. There's luggage with airline stickers on the back in the back seat. And then again in that conversation, and I remember her first name is Laura uh, and I don't remember what her last name is in bush? Was that okay? So I said, wow, you uh you got airline tickets? She said, yeah. I flew from Boston to San Diego and I ran in a car and driving back. That makes no sense. And the car wasn't squat a much. I said, And a lot of people don't think beyond their initial lie, so you gotta be quick with that to figure that out. So I said, what do you got in the trunk? She said, antiques. What she didn't know is that I truly love antiques. Oh, and I am super informed on antiques and collect different stuff. And I went, Laura, dad gone, girl, I love antiques. What kind do you have? And she went and she put her hand to her face. And then I pulled the trick that I always pulled, which it's no secret. I don't think it's secrets. I don't really care. And I pulled it many a time. I said, Laura, honey, you look like a very nice woman. Do you think I was just sitting there waiting on anybody. I know what's in that trunk, and I've been watching and waiting on you to come by me. And right now is your chance. You have this one chance, this one opportunity where I can still help you out. Dear God, they led it the trunk. I'm not supposed to mess with it. Am I gonna go to jail? Please? I was like, what is it? It's some kind of drugs. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it was. Well, what happened was she got paid thirty thousand a trip. They flew her from Boston to San Diego. She would tell them what room she was in. They would bring a rental car, tour, drop the keys. She would drive across country, stopping in Vegas, Branson, whatever she wanted to do, make it to Boston, let them know she had made it to her house. Somebody would come, she'd give them the keys, they'd drop her thirty grand. And she did four trips a year, four trips a year, cat tax free. So we called the DEA. They came down and did a delivery, busted the head guy up there and his main operators were all elderly. When I say elderly, i'm sixty one, sixty five to seventy five year olds retirement age. You would never never take a second look at He wasn't going to deal with the guy from the streets or the hood or whatever you want to call it, the or the dumb one from Kentucky. Yeah, them from Kentucky, long hair with the marijuana t shirt on. And these were clean cut like your grandma. So talk a little bit about So you transition from growing up in a law enforcement family, your next step was the game game warding, correct, correct? So back then there were semi applicants for different jobs and you would put in and there would be thousands of people apply for a job. My brother at the time he had he had came out service and within months he was hired as a game warder, which he worked his way up to major and then later became the longest serving chief of the Capitol Police in Virginia and then he retired after thirty some years. My dad worked from sheriff, then became US marshall and he was the US Marshal for the Western District until he was seventy. He worked two terms Bush, one term Obama, then he retired from that. So I was putting in for jobs. I was doing investigative work for insurance companies and that was my main way of making money. Plus I was working part time for the Sheriff's office, but I didn't get paid because my dad didn't believe in nepotism and so, but he liked to work work. Yeah, I worked about twenty hours a week uniform whatever, but had I was paid like fifteen dollars every two weeks to keep me on the liability insurance. But I donated it back to the DARE program or the Flower Fund at the Sheriff's office. But I made my money insurance. So my first job in law enforcement tech full time. I left a very good job and insurance industry paid very well and there were four thousand applicants for twelve openings, and I got hired with the Game Commission. Where was your initial assignment Fairfax, Haullington and was Alexandria, So it was a little culture shop. Yeah, and so was born there up that way now, huh. I was always raised and was born in Biloxi, Mississippi. When my dad was in the military, but we were primarily from with so they sent me to Fairfax, which they didn't ever see a game warden. They didn't even know what it was. The first week I was there, I called armed robbers that robbed a seven to eleven. I pulled up in front of a seven eleven. These two guys run out and they were like, they just robbed a store, and I took off and I snatched one of them. I was doing more criminal stuff up there than I was anything, but I took it as an opportunity. Like they had four helicopters, Jeff Pike. I'd ride down to the Fairfax air station, Hey, can I go up with you guys? They take me up this and that. I'd kind of figure out the lay of the land, how it worked. Dispatch center monstrous. Uh. State police They're like, we'd never seen a game warring up here. Uh. So, you know, I was just this kind of proactive. It was weird, and I didn't have radio. Back then, the game warding dispatch shut off at five o'clock. I didn't have a radio. I was just doing stuff by myself, to the point that the captain up there at the Fairfax brought me in one day. You had just they had big radios. Jeff, you're killed up here, dude. I ain't supposed to do this. Sign here, we're going to give you a radio, and here's you a number if you need something that you've got something to call somebody with. Of course, we didn't have cell phones. So that was the captain for the police for state please say police, uh, then Fairfax County, but they got three or four thousand cops. I had an incident where I went to this Lake Lake Actigue and there was this Hispanic guy rolling a keg of beer down the street and there was a distribution center right up the road, and so I pull in. He's drunk. Obviously he's probably stole it from up the road. He fought me a little bit. I handcuffed him, put him on the ground, and we're there with a keg. Didn't have a radio or anything. And so the park people come by on a golf cart and I said, hey, go down to the office, call the county, tell him I'm down here in the park, and send somebody to help me with this guy. And it's probably been a break in. Well they go and call up and go, hey, there's a game warden down in the parking lot. He said he needs some help. Can you send somebody out. That's what they said, down down in the parking lot and hung up. Oh I'm standing there with the guy. I hear, I hear the I was like, that's a lot of what's that? And all of a sudden that the helicopter dudes I've been going and flying with just to kind of do something different, this bell chopper, tree top level, something straight out of Rambow nose down dumb, asked Jeff Fike. I'm like, Oh, they just going out here. Hey, what are y'all doing? And they called it. There was this code that Fairfax used. It was like Code one or something. They had a name for it. It meant bad, and I'll never forget. The first cop came and this guy was like six. I'm six five. He's like six six and totally jacked right. He gets out with it. What's going on? What's going I mean he's like, this dude is like he's ready for a war. I was like, what's going on? They called a Code one on you. I was like, Nick, I didn't call anything. I didn't have a radio. They roll in and then a couple hours later, they're like the captain and they had little district offices and stuff go down. So I tell him the story and he's just like, are you kidding me? I was like, dude, I'm not. I swear you can't make up what happens in my life. Right, I guess you go to Fairfax County radio installed in my car. So what year was that? This would have been like ninety three, ninety four, ye, right in there early on. Yeah, And so how long did the game commission like that? I mean, it's huge now compared to what it was back then. I don't remember how many game wards. I was like, it was just a weird dynamic that the game commission, and it was this sentiment that you were more like animal control up there. So for me, I wouldn't say I caught in crap over it, but they were more laid back supervisors that weren't very They were not proactive. They did not like Jeff Pike getting drugs. And then when boating season came in, you know, I would just destroy the boat DUI's and the car DU's and everywhere I went. I was always and that's why my expert witness in DUI's is just sheer numbers. It's sheer numbers and variety. So you get up. There, you're proactive, you get all that stuff done. How did you end up in Lynchburg, Virginia undercover? Okay, So I was trying to work my way cause I'm driving that. I'm driving three hundred miles to my farm and with my days off, this and that eighty five toy to pick up truck, no AC some change. Yeah, So they sent me to Henry County. So I worked Henry, Pennsylvania, Patrick, Martinsville, Damville, and I was wearing stuff out down there. That place is a different Martinsville. Damvill is a rough place that's down in Anvils, the closest I ever came to shooting somebody. And so I'm still driving that. That's still like an hour to get back to my place. And so the chief in Pulaski got some kind of task force grant and they wanted me to do undercover work. So I went there. Uh, and then my dad left. I went to to with I went there right before he was getting ready to leave, and he went to retired as sheriff and yeah, and he went to us Marshall. So I like a dumbass. A sheriff then was not very He never probably arrested anybody in his whole life. Uh. And so I decided, well, I'm going to run for the nomination for sheriff. Came close, didn't win. It paid a heavy price for that, like anybody that knows politics does. And so I had a friend that ran the regional jail. He said, Jeff, I know you're going to get a job somewhere else. We just opened the jail up. We come down here work. I went there for like three or four months. And then in Lynchburg, apparently they had had an individual that they tried to do Chuck Bennett. The chief was from Richmond. He had a background in narcotics and they were wanting to do a kind of a high level undercover operation. They had someone they tried to do it with. But apparently, you know, it's not for everybody, and it can be scary. You know. For me, I was never scared. I mean, you get adrenaline. But to some people, and you know, I've run across it over the years, the scaredy cops, and it's more prevalent than you think. The last guy to get to the bad call, or the guy that's busy when the bad call's there, or you know it sounds good. I want to work undercover till you got to walk into a crack house and they push a slide across it and you're in there. You're in there. So they hired me. It was Chief Bennett, the clerk he's probably I don't know if he's live or dead now, older guy, and Russell Davison at s ATF and we went to some bus shop in the middle of the night and I was sworn in there. They hooked me up with the apartment. They hooked me up with a phone that nobody knew that went through their billing and whatnot, which is a story and of itself that I got into with one of the captains because he was trying to figure out where this phone bill was coming from. And so not everybody at the PD with nobody knew, just initially just the chief is chief Clerk David Davison Stokes, who was Lieutenant over vice. There might have been some a couple of fringe people that had an inkling that I was out there. Nobody saw me, nobody knew what I looked like nobody. You know, they might be somebody out there, but we really don't know who or what it is. And so, because like we talked earlier, you know, I didn't work informance, initially, they would give me tips of we're having trouble with this, we're having trouble with this, and then I would figure out how am I gonna wiggle my way into the spot. So I think that's what's unique about what you did, as opposed to a lot of people like me that work narcotics and work cases like that where we have to find somebody to infiltrate to go in. You actually did it yourself. So you were given a problem and you were given the freedom to find a solution. Sure, I mean, and some of it was easier than the others. You know, they'd go Pierce Street or Cable Street or whatever, here's where to go. So but I knew if you showed up even then, even though there were open air markets, there's still like a little level to kind of maybe make it a little easier. So I just kind of thought about how what would be what's believable makes sense? Look, what do you come up with your own cover on what you were going to Yeah, Well what it did was and it sounds it's a time nobody ever done it, and it's not. Really. It was fairly simple. So I would go down to the comfort end. I didn't even rent a room, and I'd call up the cab company and the cabby would show up, and sometimes I wore like bibs or I was like the construction guy. I get in the cab and they had told me the cab companies were dirty, and I was like, I'm in town working, Can you take me to the liquor store? And they take me to liquor store and I get back in the cab. I crack it. They would allow you to drink like a couple of beer whatever, but I didn't really Usually I take a swig and maybe spill some on me and he smelled like that yeah, And I was like, dude, I'm really looking to party down here. Is there any way you can hook me up. I'll take care of you. They would take me right to the corner. They would take me right to the street, and you roll in with a cab. It was like a feeding frenzy, like you hit throw chum in the water. So you can pick who you want and so then then I would buy. Uh. It was hard because it would happen quick, and they had a vehicle set up with me for cameras. So what I was trying to do is set the stage. I would do that a few times with the cabs. Not only am I getting, I'm definitely getting the cabs in trouble and the cab company in trouble. The street guys are harder because it's so quick, and they would make me do photo lineups to pick the people out, even though we had on video and there was like a set of twins. It was like a mongrela or aingrela that there was some twins I couldn't pick out. Uh, there was some times that I couldn't pick them out from a photo lineup after I'd made the deal, even though it was on video. So after doing a couple three buys out of the cabs, I got my truck and there's videos I have. You go in and they're like studying me, and I was like, dude, I was down here in the cab the other day and they go, oh, yeah, I remember him. Sell And once they would sell to me in the vehicle, it was then it was it was smooth sell and long as you paid. As long as you paid and everything else you paid, then they would get to the point where they let me come in houses. Uh. And then we did some things later on where I actually took a tag team and we would in the back of a delivery vehicle. Uh. Again it's not rocket science. They're like, how are we going to get a tag team? And everybody's I was like, let me rent a U haul. I'll go down, make some buyers and the U haul leave the back end open, and then when you're ready to hit it, throw the team. So that's what it did. I did like buyers in a U haul truck, but that was at the very end. So I was doing the street buys and I was like, dude, this is easy. I'm making all kinds of cases. Uh. And then you're directed to a certain area and you start rolling making buyers. And then it's when I started experiencing what I experienced in other places. This is too much. This is Comans Attorney's office. Because I would do the reports and that didn't sign my name. But they're starting to see this stuff get generated and they're still they're probably still in the dark at how you're doing it. They're like, holy smokes, Yeah, we've got a cop out there that's making buyers yeah, and hand buys. And so the first excuse was that I was targeting to many black people. Okay, fine, Jeff will take care of that. Just slip my hair back and be the cool dude. And I start going to the bars, and I start targeting the country bars and the whatever bars you want me to change demographics, no problem, problems in every demograph. Started doing it there. Then I was like, there's a lot of trouble with uh, these bars. They're doing all kinds of crazy stuff, the actual bars themselves, the management, the owners. So they had Stephanie Gorman was the ABC chick, and she got hold of me on the phone to kind of educate me. You know, I need the loss, but there's these some administrative or not administrutive, but there's some technical things regulation yeah, that they're violating. So she educated me on that. So not only would I go in restaurants and then buy drugs. Uh, then I was like monitoring the alcohol stuff, which shut down the biggest catialanies that used to be. I guess I can say the names and they're no longer here. The Dahlia bootles time out. Some of them never recovered because they they got massive fire oh, massive fines. They would have to close. They would always make up stories were refinishing the floors or whatever. I think Calain it never said Jeff was here. There was never a drug problem. You know, it's just we got to fix the floor and pay the fine and go on. So you know, I started doing that, and you know I could tailor it. I would just start thinking about the story I could tell. And of course another thing is most undercover stuff or cops will go to the bar. The one time, right, I was going in a bar every night, and not to get drunk or whatever. I could drink two beers. I took it in the bathroom and poured them out. Also, I had been in the issues where I'd seen where people go, oh, he's doing drugs too, so his testimony is not. I got drug tested all the time, which they got. People were starting to say, so you're being you're successful, and they're like, well there's got to be a reason he's using something. Yeah, So I would get I see anything to sideline something. Yeah, I was like a drug test me and then too By that point I had worked it, and I knew that there were certain cops that didn't want you to be successful, either from jealousy or they were involved in it too. You know, I've done undercover and narcotic stuff for people ended up in jail. I had one dumb ass. I had a vehicle and we had county stickers. So I had a friend in Northern Virginia send me a county sticker, and the guy who was over me raised tail, what's that county sticker doing on that car? Well, you look like a narc if you don't have a County sticker, because you're gonna get pulled over and getting so well, I didn't know he's banging informants and doing stuff with drugs. That was his tail to his his people. You see the car with no county sticker, that's gonna be the man stay away from it. So you start getting those kind of things happened to you and you learn really really quick. But going back to the bars and stuff, you know, I saint karaoke, I played pool, I was there every night, so you were a known Yeah cop, cop wouldn't be in here. And the bar culture is a really weird thing. It's almost like cheers. Once you go a week or two. Jeff, brother, what are you doing? Another thing? Working undercover? I always use your real first name cause you'll forget and slip up. So were you Jeff Foxworth? Now I was Jeff Willard because the operation was Willard the right, Okay, and that's how we come up with Willard. Something that's easy to remember. Yeah, and uh, but your first name. I always kept the first name. And I had different stories about what I did where I was from. Again, if you pick, you're saying somebody, Hey, I'm from wherever, you better know something about that place. That place. I mean, that's just common sense. So where'd you say you were from? I said I was down towards Bristol, and just say Bristol was big enough to where you went. And I knew enough about Bristol. And then I have a heavy accent. Makes sense some people. I did construction. Then if I wanted to step it up where it would make sense, I had money. It was the time they were putting in cell phone towers, so I worked for a cell phone company that puts in towers, and I do cell phone tower signal testing. Something nobody knows what the hell is that, So you talk about it, nobody can ask what question are you're gonna ask me? I don't know what. You don't do like Seinfeld and say you're a doctor or something like that. You better come up with a good story. So that was a story that fit me. It made sense. But nobody knew technically enough about it to ask you a legitimate question. If I'd run across a cell phone tower, guy, they're probably not gonna be dealing dope. So what I hear and what you were doing is number one, it was proactive, But number two, it was it took time. It took time and effort, and you had to have a certain level of commitment to deal with the problem. Sure, and you were and you had a solution, It just took time to get there. Talk about we talked about this earlier, and I think most cops are like, hey, I'm not going anywhere without a gun. You ran into an issue when you first started undercover. Talk about that where you weren't even carrying a firearm. Yeah. I mean most of my buys and I'm kind of hardheaded in some ways, especially if somebody even in business. Now, if somebody says I can't or whatever. I'll figure out a way to do it, and you're not going to stopped me. And I had run across situations where people were obstacles so to qualify, and I can't remember if it's a clock, a barretta whatever. To me, it was a cop gun. I shoot a ninety ninety four. I'm not the marksman, but I can easily pass. I've been shooting it arranged since I was a teenager, doing the standard shooting course. And I was like, I can't carry that gun. It looks like a cop. It's like gun I got on now, little snubnose thirty eight. It's a beater. I can throw it around whatever. It makes sense. It makes sense. Well, you're gonna have to qualify with that. And I was like a five shot revolver. I mean my died. And then back in I didn't have speed loaders and you had to shoot over an eighty and during the daytime shooting, I think I shot at eighty two and I was like, with the bullets in my pocket and I'm trying to throw out the CA I was like, I'm never gonna do this at night. I don't have nights I don't have anything that you so and it's basically looked like a flash bulb going off in my face. I'm doing the best I can. I think I shot like a seventy three or whatever. You can't carry that you didn't qualify. So I was like, fuck it, I just won't carry again. Okay, sorry to say it that way, but I'll be hard. So so, if you were ever in the situation where you got stopped or anything else, you you would have been sitting in jail until your handler was noted. Yeah, oh yeah, because the first few times they actually went out and then they realized how time consuming it was. Then We're gonna put somebody out there listening to a wire with the music or the whatever going and I'm in a place for three, four or five hours. And so they were like, and I guess, you know, to my credit, they kind of give me a little leeway. And they're like, Jeff will be fine. Do what you need to do. Jeff will be fine. And if you need something, you less know. But but you didn't have credentials. I mean you had you didn't. You didn't have anything. I had a fake wallet. I didn't care. No, And on me nothing, no gun. I had a fake wallet, I had a social Security card, fake names, driver's license. I'd pick up like your intelligence, got some litter, you know, if I stopped at whatever, got a membership at the Blockbuster whatever, that would it looked like a legit, you know. And depending on what part I was playing, you know, I wore certain the nasty boots, or I dressed up a little bit more for this or that. You know, I would alter things. And then of course what helped me too has done it before. I knew the tails that they would look for, because they would tell me. I would ask them. Shoes are a big thing. But you know I was the weirdo that didn't look like a cop. You know. It was tall and lanky and long hair and a goof so you fit in. You just look like anybody normal, everybody at Hardy. So talk about tell and we're going to transition into a different, darker side. But talk about one of your funniest stories that you can think of. I'll give you a second or two, but funniest story that you had working undercover that you're like, man, you cannot make this up. The prostitution, whichever one you want to talk about I would say that it's very common to meet women cops that have played prostitutes. It's very uncommon to meet men that have played male prostitutes. So you're deuced, Bigelow. Yeah, don't know what I was. I didn't even know. And bless his heart Stuart Mack who's passed work vice. And this is later on. This is after because you have to realize I did the super undercover. Then I started doing more top end stuff, but it's still a little bit different level than working see eyes. You know, I was the prop guy that you could do things with that, you know, Jeff looks like crap, he could do this, or we've got this issue, and my super secretness was not It was still there a little bit, but it wasn't the level. So they had a park down in Lynchburg and there was Little League fields there and this where the gay community, dudes or whatever we're going to. And so they had two ten or twelve year old boys from the Little League team walked in on two guys having sex, and of course they called the chief and then they go, hey, y'all need to go down there and take care of this. So you were the multi tool and you fixed that. Jeff can be maybe he can be gay. I don't have anything about gay people, so don't nobody jump my shit for it. Don't care what you do, but it's not appropriate whether you're gay or straight. You don't need to be doing it in the bathroom and letting some kids walk in on you. Right, Sorry, that's just the way it is. So me and Stuart mac I was like, you know, my mind gay gay. So I went to Walmart and I bought a pink shirt Stuart. We had Barbara that worked there that was much smaller, and Stuart had the typical big black guy's butt and put on the booty pop pants and he had a shirt with a smiley face as tongue sticking out. And then we were quite the couple. Yeah. Then we went and got some Jurgons lotion and let's just say Stuart, who God rests, saw me and him got along great. He was a very he checked on me sometimes. I mean, he was a good guy. And we got some lotion and Stewart was very black complexed, so I would put lotion on Stewart. We'd rub lotion on each other and we went down to the park and so it was relatively easy compared to the women prostitutes, and these guys were like want and bad and so, as you know, you have to have a discussion of a sex acts and a furtherance, and a furtherances exchange of money or driving down street or showing a body part. So and again, no offense to gay people. It's just not my thing. So I wasn't going to do whatever. So what I would do if they didn't do a money exchange or didn't want to go somewhere, I would have them show me their penises. And so I had one guy who was and for whatever, they called me homewreckerd for a while because a lot of the guys I was getting were all married. Stuart, ye, Jeff the homewrecker. Yeah, Stuart did much better than me because I think they preferred black guys, and so Stuart had I had to drop my prices a little bit compared to Stuart. And so I had this guy hanging up on me and I was in the passenger's side. Of course, all this is recorded. There's a takedown team and all that, and the guy sitting in the driver's seat and I'm standing and the cops here called my daddy after this happened, and my dad calls me, what the hell is going on down there? So he wouldn't show me his penis, and I was like, you know, you have to be invented. And then he goes, show me yours, and I'll show you mine, all right, Hey, I'm securing my manhood. So I pull it out and he goes, unlike any woman in my life that I've ever heard say anything, and I've never heard this, he went, that is the most beautiful penis other than he didn't say it that way that I've ever seen in my life, and I will do this and this to it. And I said, well, I need to see yours, okay, And he showed me his, and we said, did you have anything nice to say about him? Other than it was much small? It was very small, and like a friend of mine used to say an older guy, it looked like a mouse buried up in a haybale. I'm not And that's the real Appalachian saying uh. And I might have had some girls say that to me as far as descriptions, but I never heard one say it was beautiful. And so we said the words, and I know he made this or not. He's still around, Dan Black, I'll never forget. You know, he retired. Was he a lieutenant or something? And sorry, Dan, if I don't remember your rank, pulls up with the most disgusting look in his face and he is, y'all are sick. You're sick. And then my guy who was married and he was a produce manager at a major grocery store that I won't say major grocery store proceeds to have a heart attack or he said he was. We had to call the rest of you squad and they transported him in long story short and of course you know it's a misdemeanor, and that it would be more appropriate if he worked in the meat department. Now he worked in the produce plot, I know, but he should be in the meat department. Yeah, no, that I would say, You know, I had. You know, there's dozens of stories of silliness. You know, after you would be exposed. You know, most everybody says I knew you were a cop or I don't know him, never seen in my life. I knew the whole time, even though you were doing what you were doing, you knew it. You knew it so well that like after I come out and tell you exactly what the answer is. You have the answer, but then you know again later on. Then that's when they would use me. Okay, we're going to bust a house. You know, Jeff's the prop he looks like, you know, take the U haul down there. And in that particular case, it was a tremendous operation, and they had a helicopter and everything, and at the end of the day it wasn't cool, Jeff, you did this or that. There was two things. I had slung the tag team around too bad in the back of the U haul, so they were all pissed at me. And then one of the captains who I won't name their names for confidentiality, had thrown up up in the state police helicopter and everybody was sworn to secrecy that that if it got out, you were gonna have hell to pay. And I was like, what about me, I've been doing and they're worried about full disclosure. I had to fly one time. You know, it's five to eleven jacket that had the inside pocket. I puked in my pocket and I drove the whole thing and nobody complained about the smell. But it was a little hot on my chest for well, I'll never forget. One time I had a friend and he worked art and we were doing an aerial interdiction in far Southwest and I had flown a lot. I'd flown in Hughey's, I've flown in uh M D five hundreds. I went up two years ago with the power line crew that was trimming. I paid them to take me on the ride. We were trimming the power they had to land in my field. So I've done a lot of that. And so a friend of mine, Jim, had went up in the helicopter State Police helicopter. I was in a Huey and H. When we came back to land, he was he didn't have a shirt on. It's like, there's this guy with no bear chest it. I was like, where's your shirt? I threw up in it. I was like, where's it at? I threw it out the window somebody's house of vombit laden shirt lands in your yard. But I just never forget because Jim was like this barrel chested harry guy. He cops off that. I was like, what, Jim, was your shirt at? Anyway? So the last thing I want to cover is I think in law enforcement. We've had a lot of people on as guests and they've talked about law enforcement. Where we are in law enforcement. I think one of the things. That you investigated that was probably one of the more difficult things is, and I'll let you tell the story, is what was it a double or triple homicide? Triple homicide in California? Yeah, talk about that a little bit and what that was like having to work that as a cop and seeing somebody that has a badge, just like we have badges, you know, involving himself in something so horrible. Well, I would say this that initially I had seen the post on social media of the crime and his connection to law enforcement very early on, and a lot of people's I don't know if they say I'm psychic. So that's why I could get loads of dust. You know. I think you just when you grow up in it, you develop this sense of the dawn. Right. And I had been involved in law enforcement. I've seen all the corruption, every level of nonsense and stupidity and criminal activity on the particles. So when I see a trooper slash deputy commit a triple homicide and catfish a girl, I was. Like been talking about the girl. How old was this fifteen? Fifteen year old child? This ain't the first time. You don't just snap and do that. So I reposted the story before I knew anything about it, and my comment was, I bet the state police in the Washington County Sheriff's Office HR is working overtime, and of course, within a few hours they release a statement, no problems know this, nothing's happened, We've never this kid is never going to arrive. I was like, it's bullshit, there's no way. So what he did was he was posing as he's twenty nine, thirty years old. He's posing as a seventeen year old online talking to We later found multiple underage girls, and this particular girl was fifteen and lived in Riverside, California. So he drives across country, shows up at her grandparents house where this girl lived with her mother. He produces a badge and a gun, slits the mother's throat, goes in, ties up, the grandparents puts plastic bags over their head. We know that they smothered to death because he later sets the house on fire. There's no smoke in their lungs. The dogs are killed in the fire, takes the fifteen year old. The neighbor, thank god saw it. They getting a police chase. He's shooting at the cops with his service revolver, shot at the police helicopter and as they're closing in, thank god, he didn't kill the little girl or the fifteen year old. He killed himself. But still the trauma for that point, Oh yeah, Well there's a multi million dollar lawsuit about it over what she's endured, and plus you know these people getting killed again. The narrative, no trouble. He was excellent. We're as shocked as everybody is there. No. I was like, there's no way. So he because he had just left the state Police and went to Washington County. The Los Angeles Times got hold of me and said, Jee, if we understand your private investigating areas in your area, do you mind logistically helping us with some stuff or do you know this and that or whatever? And I said sure, And they call me within a few days and they said there's rumors that he failed his or there's a polygraph examination and this guy had been committed in a mental institution. I was like, are you kidd meet and they said, can you figure it out? So yeah, let me made one phone call and apparently on the state police portal when applicant or somebody's in there, anybody in the agency can go look at your file if you're in the process of getting hired and all that, and look up your just see what stats is what you've done, so you know who you work with. Yeah, that's not that's the theory. That's not available anymore. That got x Nate over this. Made one phone call. I said, hey, is it true? There's a polygraph? And this guy admitted that he was committed to a mental institution that it's true. How do you know? Are you one hundred percent? Oh? I got a copy of it. You want it, absolutely, give me five minutes and I'll send it to you. And then as this progressed later on, instead of fixing the problem, then became the main questions of how I got this information. So they were going after the person that gave that and and I, you know, I never would divulge divulge that, I mean, that would be such retaliation. So and I've got a copy here, uh, and I brought it. He admitted that he went in a mental institution for threatening him to kill himself. And his daddy. How old was he when that appen? I've got the dates on the teenage? Teenage? Or was he? No, no, he was an adult. He was It wasn't like something that happened. No, No, he was an adult within the period of time where Yeah, So, not only has he been committed to a mental institution. Uh, he admitted to drug use. He admitted to cheating on testing college, all of which would have disqualified back in my day. He admitted to not there was a commoners things, not giving notice and leaving a job. He could say, you know whatever, and I'm like, you're committed to a mental institution. Of course, I call the LA Times. It's like, I got the are you sure? I was like, I got a copy, I got the whole. I got the polygraph, who did it, when it was done, where it was done, and all the answers. It's clear and there he admits to it. And then I'm like, you're committed. Your gun rights are revoked. I wonder about that. So I knew that it had happened. And the weird thing is that all that had happened in Washington County where he ended up working at. So it what I didn't know is Washington County does their committal stuff through the city of Bristol, which is but still a deputy. Wouldn't a deputy be the one that the guy doing the polygraph? Once you've seen that, you would say that tell the background check guy, right, and this is a problem, right. But I'm just saying, before he got hired in Washington County, somebody from that Sheriff's office would have been the one to serve thee. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, So I wrote, I was like, wonder how you get that. There's a form you fill out, and I just put my explanation for wanting it is the guy's dead and it's for the greater good of the community to figure this out. He'd had his gun rights revoked and he was hired by the state Police and then the Washington County Sheriff's off who were the ones that do the background texts for people. So the narrative then changed to Washington case says, well, he was a trooper. State police says it was human error. Somebody hit F two instead of F three on the thing. I'm like, no, that might have happened, But what about this polygraph? You have two you have two humans that knew better, and this whole group is class. Is my understanding was the special class that the command's staff reviewed. Everybody nobody reviewed anything. Nobody reviewed this guy's background check. But the stud good thing is the polygraph guy could have went whoa, whoa, Wait a minute, hey, Fred, you're doing the background check. Uh, this kid's a pro. This is an issue. I mean it's it's beyond ridiculous the failures here, and then he goes on to utilize training and equipment to perpetrate a triple homicide of kidnapping. He could have killed some cops and the whole thing was nothing was wrong. Ah, it was just human error. Look the other way. And then what I learned is, you know some departments now are they will work short and keep quality and others will lower the quality just to fill seats, warm body in a seat exactly. So, So from your experience with that, how does that relate to law enforcement now? Is? Is? So what you are saying is let's not drop the sting, let's hold the. Standard and do quality over quantity. Absolutely I agree with that and the message it sends too, And I said this on some major news outlets is that the public perception of police is destroyed. It's destroyed. And in the academy, you know, I would teach you know, most people only deal with the cop one time in their life and how that cop treats them, their perception of the police in alle of the rest of their life. But when you do something that horrendous, and for me, if I'd been in charge, I would go, look, this is a terrible failure. We have corrected. The polygraph guys fired or demote it. The background check guy ain't gonna do backgrounds anymore. That would be some substantial and you put that information out there. Yeah, so it is. We are this we are this agency. Sure, but we made a mistake. If I had been the governor, if I had been the governor, superintendent, you're done. I'm not putting up with this. But they're not going to do that. So but guess I'm guessing from my standpoint that there was never even to this day, there obviously, if there was a lawsuit, there was an admission of wrongdoing or just a settlement, but there's never been an official statement from either agency corrected the record saying hey, we made a mistake. The only mistake the State Police. They make it sound like some clerk in a room touched the wrong key on a keyboard. That's not how backgrounds were not at all. So you know that was and the people were very shocked. But you know, I've been in business as a private investigator for twenty three years, so you know there's people that don't like me, there's people that do. In this instance, it was kind of not shocking. But there's a lot of old school troopers that were so mad about this that they were willing to help. But there was no Jeff Pike is not going to catch any repercussions like they would, you know. And the sad thing is if one of these people had stood up and said, hey, you would have you would have faced heavy consequences. They wouldn't. They wouldn't have kept their job. No, you would have been run run out of town on a rail or transferred to some place. And they can sit there and go, oh, no, we wouldn't. Our agency would never do that. But Juey, you've been around long enough as I have that you rock the boat and you try to stand up for the right thing. Uh, you know you can pay a heavy price for it. Well, I tell you. I think it's a good way to end it. And what I would like to think is, and I know we discussed this before, but I would like to think that maybe together we could put out there and say, hey, if you have something that you think might be public corruption, somebody that hasn't done something right, contact us sure, and would you be willing to help. Us investigate things like that? Absolutely, because I think like with your experience and your level of expertise and the level that you work at, and be awesome to be able to go out there and hold some public officials account. And you know, I've done stolen valor, I've done all kinds of corruption cases. Again, you know, this is my twenty thirty year in business. You know, I typically do between one hundred and seventy five and two hundred cases a year everything. You know, I'm an expert witness in multiple categories in three states, all the way up to the federal level in homicide, police procedure, evidence collection, DUI, car crash, narcotics. That's declared expert in court by the judge after a debate about my background. Yeah, it's not like they don't just like whatever one size says, I'm good as gold, and the other side says, I don't know, and. They have to the side that says you're an expert has to win that art exactly, and then the judge agree with and then I can offer opinion. Uh, you know, I testify it's a fact. I had a court last week and they just stipulated to the evidence. Both sides like, well, it's Jeff. The judge is fine, We're fine. Both sides are fine because of me. Uh. But then in those cases I can offer opinion. Uh. In stays based on everything experience, experience that you had to get and it's not nitpicking. A lot of people say, well he's nitpicking this or body can vid. No, I'm not nitpicking anything. Some of these mistakes are just beyond it's not it's it's an obvious. It's somebody getting up and saying one thing and the end result that you have got. And I can talk about this briefly. You know, we got one and with full it's all public records. It's been in the paper and the news. You know, a guy that blows the zero and has zero on his narcotics, Uh, does a fender bender crash? Uh, they're convinced these do you I still arrest him, put him in jail for thirty hours when he's blowed zeros and tested zero and he had a stroke and he's permanently disabled. And the backstory to that is he run into the mayor of the town and his family's the one that suffers from that. Yeah, I mean, this guy needs twenty four to seven care now. And you know, but again the backstory. I think it's crazy that some it seems like the higher some people get in government, the more they think they're untouchable. Oh. Absolutely, And I think about people like us that are like at the bottom rung and we're held accountable. And the standard for us is so much higher than every sure. You know, when I got hired, you know, you had to have a certain visions. You know, back in the day, you had to be so tall. Yeah, you could be obese. You know. I talked about all the time. A lot of people don't want to mention it. You know. One of the biggest trouble in law enforcement is obesity. I see these guys, they're not capable of doing their job. I mean physics, we oh, yeah, they can sit behind a desk or ride around in the car, but when push comes to sub or they got to chase somebody, then am I gonna be able to do it? That's why I have a doll. There'll be the first body you step over when you get to the scene. I hate to say it that way, no, but you're right. Well, buddy, I really appreciate you coming on and look forward to working on some projects with you. I appreciate it very much. You are think
