I've got Smettie back with me. You were a crowd favorite, not favorite, but you were a crowd favorite. And I think we ended last time with you talking about your experience on nine to eleven. We're gonna give a shout out to, you know, everybody that was involved in that who put this out around September eleventh. But I kind of want to pick up where we left off last time. You've just been through nine to eleven, you had lost your father, and I think the last thing we talked about is them clearing ground zero for the last time. Kind of pick up from there and talk about how you ended up in this area at a local department. Yeah. So I had started to look at leaving New York before before the eleventh. You just kind of like dealing with different, you know, scenarios. It's expensive to live up there. Taxes are high. Yeah, food is great, the you mentioned that, the you know, when I go back, when I go back home to UH to visit or do whatever up in New York, I usually schedule visits with people I want to see depending on where I want to eat, because I figure out to eat part first and say, hey, this is where I'm going to be. So this is where what's your favorite place to eat in New York? You know, probably it's going to be Italian places because you know, I mean I grew up in an Italian house, and you know, you just you don't get that level of authenticity down here with the you know, some of the fast food Italian restaurants like Olive Garden something like that. It's like it's like McDonald's to h two Italian people. But anyway, the uh yeah, so it you know, we had kind of kind of looked around at some different things as far as you don't want to get out of New York and get away from you know, the commute commuting into the city and you know, spend a lot of time on the road and and wanting to get away from the cold weather which I hate, and so like literally this is like my thought process at the time was I grew up on the coast, so I wanted to be near the ocean relatively, So the East Coast was was gonna be on the on the menu. North wasn't an option because I hate the cold and want to get into colder than already was, so I had to go south. And so when I think about the South, And when I thought about it, it was kind of like, all right, Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, and Florida. And my grandfather lived in Florida when when I was a kid, and so I was I was familiar with it. He lived in Orlando. But I don't want to go to Florida because they don't know, basements got big bugs. You know, it's just it's just. Not for you. It was you know, it wasn't too far. It was too far, all right. So I said, all right, well what does that leave. So Virginia, Carolina is Georgia, and I really don't know anything about the South culturally wise, and I was really worried, you know that you know, I'd end up down here and i'd be run out of town with you know, rednecks and pitchforks and pickup trucks and you know, and you know, running me out of town, call me yankee this. Or that, and everything like that happened. They just didn't have pitchforks. No pitchforks though, so I you know, culturally speaking, I was ignorant to it. So I didn't know what I was getting myself into. So I said, well, Virginia's kind of in the middle. It's not that far south. You know, if I don't like it, I'll just go back. Because when I left the Fire Department, I took a leave of absence, so I had a year to go back if I wanted to get my position back. I said, this will be a good kind of trial phase. So I put in some applications in different places and Virginia, and I was doing that through the process while I was still employed with the Fire Department. And honestly, the events of the eleventh made leaving the city harder because you know, I've already had some of those wheels in motion before I left, but the legacy and the stuff with Dad had kind of changed some of that, you know, not enough where. Obviously it didn't keep me from coming down, but you know where I had, you know, chiefs of the department, you know that were calling me saying, you have the golden ticket. Any company you want to work in, you can work in it. I mean, you were already on a fast track with your. But a lot of a lot of those companies are hard to get into. And and and then you know, promotionally, you know, the different kinds of things you do civil service wise in the city. You get points for certain things, You get veterans points, you get points for you know, living in the city, and all these other kind of things, and for survivors of surviving children of people that were killed in a job get legacy points, so they points on civil service exams and and because of the sort of unique situation, you know, the Game of the Golden Tickets said, just did. You ever contemplate going to NYPD or no? Well, yeah, yeah, I did. Actually when when I came out of high school and went in to college and I was taking criminal justice class, I was wanted to get in the police work. And so I put in with NYPD in nineteen ninety seven and went through that process. And when they showed me how much I was gonna make, I said, well, I'm getting ready to buy a house, man, Like, how am I supposed to pay a mortgage with this? Like this is crazy, Like they made you got to buy your own gun, you got to buy your own equipment and stuff. And I said, this is nuts, man. And so I didn't end up taking the job with them, obviously, I ended up with the with the fire department, you know, and jurisdictions outside of NYPD. You know, it's much better paid, but it's also a lot harder to get into. And so you know, I had kind of toyed with that. I obviously I wanted to get into law enforcement, but but leaving the city, leaving the fire department was was a difficult choice because it was you know, and and I loved it. I mean, and honestly, you know, fire and EMS is you know, something that I enjoyed. It's not like I walked away from a professional thinking like, all right, I've had my fill of this, I'm done. Years did you have when you left? So I had in fire and EMS. I got involved in ninety five in various different places. But the so I left in the end of two, so it was about seven years of doing work in that in that sphere, right, And so it was it was a difficult choice, and I felt a little the choice was a little easier knowing that I could potentially go back, you know, had that fail save and you know, I said, well let me see what, let me see what this is all about down in Virginia. And yeah, I got down here and took a pay cut from you know, where I was going. I mean, I think my starting pay and uh, you know where I ended up was like twenty six thousand dollars a year or something absurd, and but h out of. Care I was like, you know what, man, like, the living didn't match up, did it? Now? The cost of living was a lot easier. But you're back, you know, but you speaking with the amount of money you're making. It so it was but it was, you know, I mean, I was ate up with the job. I loved it. You know, there were days I would go into work and it's funny because I talk to people about law enforcement and you know the phases you go through in your career where when you first start you're like, I can't believe they're paying me to do this job. I would almost do this for free, right, this is great, This job is awesome. And then you know that you the job will grind you down a little bit. And then you get to that phase where you're like, they're not paying me enough for what I have to do, and you know, you kind of get the antithesis of that, But. What's the final phase. You can't pay me enough to stay. That's true, they definitely can't for me. But now the you know, and you talk about the final phase and just really the difference between the firefighting community and the police community. And I saw growing up, you know, you can't sam blast fireman out of that job. They stick around forever. They don't ever want to leave. I mean, they get to do a job, it's fun, they get to be around with their work family, and that means a lot more in that realm because of the way that they are kind of all together, and then your work is something that's you know, it's a good time, and so they can't get rid of those guys, whereas the cops. You know, I would talk to anybody, and especially in NYPD where I had a lot of friends and family, and then you down to the minute, you know, when they were going to hit their mark to be able to punch out because they couldn't get out fast enough it and I thought, you know, like, I don't ever want to be that guy. They can't wait to get away from this job. And you know, as obviously time goes on, things you experience on this job, uh, you survive it. You you get to the end, you're like I made it like it's because you know, the things you experience on this on this job is so you need. To talk to talk a little bit about the academy. So you come down, you end up going to a local academy. What was that like compared to I mean, I feel like New York has so many more opportunities equipment training, you got, it's a different level. What was it like going to a local academy? After that? It was a culture shock really for a lot of reasons. It was it was like going to another country. Okay, because culturally I didn't I didn't understand, you know, the South. I didn't understand, you know, any parts of it, with the exception of like where you know, when when I came out of out of my academy, in my police department, they you know, there were different parts of the city and you know, the low income housing project port in the city, you know, where black people lived primarily. I said, that's where I have to work. I said, I understand, you know, culturally speaking, it's similar to what I've what I've been raised around. I don't understand the other part of it, and I still don't. I've been down in for a while, but I've getting I'm getting better at it. But the so you know, as I just think people there in that area understand who they are. They are very comfortable with who they are, and I don't feel like they don't they don't really accept a lot of outside influence. Like they are where they're at. And I'm not saying they're like extremely happy, but they've embraced where they're at and they understand it and they're not they're not worried about what anybody else thinks about them. I think. I think in a lot of communities, that's that's the view that they have, is like, yeah, we're good, we're good here. And I think that's probably what you understood coming from New York. Sure, you know, it's a uh cultural acceptance. You know, where in New York there's so many different cultures and peoples, and you know, you're forced to kind of interact with these people in different ways and you understand different things, whereas down here it's not as multicultural. And adjusting to that way of thinking was a little foreign to me. So, you know, that was probably one of the bigger hurdles with the Police Academy than anything. I mean, sometimes it was just like a language barrier. I was like, I was I was in the police academy, and I had somebody that was from down here, and you know, she was sitting to my she said to my left. And I had an Asian guy to my right who's from Hong Kong, and he spoke like a Chinaman. I mean, you know, his language. His English wasn't that crazy either, but the so, you know, i'd have somebody up in the class, an instructor, you know, with a mullet, talking about you know, disassembling is still and I didn't even know that, like making alcohol was a thing that people still did. I said that the publicion's over, like you go to the liquor store? Why are we? So, you know, and I would have to get interpretations a lot of times, like what do you say? What does that word mean? So, you know, that part of the academy was really because I was absorbing not just police culture, but you know, largely Southern culture and and so a lot of adjustments with that and kind of getting used to just things that were different. And you know, the police academy prepares you for a lot of things, but what it really didn't prepare me for was the way I would be interacting with society. You know where. You know, when I went to a call with the fire department, people are always happy I was there. That's right. You know, they were glad when I showed up. They're like, oh, thank god you're here. Right. Nobody ever says that when you're when you're wearing a police uniform. And you know, I would get out with people and I'm I mean, I'm half Irish, I'm half Italian. In the hour side, I got to give together. I'll sit down and talk to anybody, you know. So I'd see somebody walking down the street and I'd say, hey, buddy, how are you? You know, and then he'd be like fuck you. And I'm like like what what? Whoa you know? I pulled the car over and you know, I get back out. We're in a fuck you contest. So and he's like, well, you can't say that. I said, well, you shut it to me. I don't understand what's your problem. I don't I don't know you. I didn't do anything to you, right, And you know, and it was every other cop that's ever done anything to that guy's whole life, right, And I was a representation of that with the badge. So, you know, culturally speaking, that was. That took me a while to to kind of absorb that change. And I don't think the academy really did a great job of preparing me for that. But you know, by and large, the academy was it was a good experience. I mean it was it was fun and kind of dipping into this world and and and embracing it. So talk about that a little bit. I think a lot of people when they think about law enforcement, they think it's just like one size fits all, and you have different personalities in law enforcement. Did you find after that initial experience, like I respect you, you respect me, and we get along. I would imagine five or ten years into your stint where you were at, people understood that for the people that you interact with on the street. If you got out and started talking to people and you showed them respect, I think that's one of the coolest things in law enforcement to experience. I remember, after George Floyd and everything, I pulled over a black dude and he was like terrified, like he was shaking, and he was like, please don't shoot me, Please don't kill me. And like at the end of that interaction he was like, I've never been trigued like this before, Like I really appreciate that, and I feel like in law enforces sometimes we need to do a better job of like understanding where people are coming from and understand like he wasn't he wasn't acting. He seriously his experience had been so negative that he thought that, like his interaction with me might end up with his death. And I think if you can't respect that and if you don't understand it, I think a lot of people in law enforces don't. I think that's where we struggle. And yeah, you're exactly right, and I think that to your point, his perception, right, this perception is is his reality, even if it's wrong. You know that, you know, there were not going out and you know, hunting and murdering black people. But if there's people that perceive that to be true, then it is their truth. And so when they're having those interactions. But you know, the word that you used, I think has been so important. It has paid more dividends in my career, and that is respect. You know, I was raised in a house where respect was very important, and you know, I was amazed at how interacting with sometimes a criminal element sometimes, especially when I got you know, work drugs and worked as a nark for eight years, that when you treated somebody with respect, that they would react in a way that was that was not what most people would expect, because you'd have a lot of police officers that would come in and just you know, somebody's in that fuck you contest, and you know, then it's just a matter of well, I got this badge I got you know, twenty guys can show up and you know, and change your mind about something, as opposed to just kind of meet somebody where they're at and just treating them with an ounce of respect, and that would go so far because I think that especially and people that are dealing with bad socioeconomic issues, people who are constantly in and out of the criminal justice system, are so seldom treated with any kind of respect, either by the police or really by anybody else in life, that when they get it, their response to it is amazing. And you know, as I continued on the job, the more time I spent interacting with you know, different elements of criminals, sometimes in the street or just you know, regular people that were just living in these neighborhoods. You know, when they saw that I would come out and even in a bad situation, even when I had to arrest somebody, you did it in a respectful way. And I would tell people, listen, the difference between you and me, it's probably about two or three bad decisions, and I'm not gonna sit over here in my high horse, and you know, I meanwhile probably wan two or three. But you know, they would respond to that in a way that say, all right, this guy's really not that much different than me. He's got a job to do. And it didn't always work. I mean, you know, I just I'm been in plenty of fights. But but even in some of the fights, you know, I'll never forget I got into a fight with this guy one time, and you know, we ended up it was it was a pretty knockdown dragonut fight. And I think I think people when they think fights, it's they see something on the internet and they're like, oh, that CoP's in a fight. We're talking about like, hey, I'm not really sure if I'm going to windo. Oh yeah, I mean this was a This was a pretty gnarly one and and I ended up dragging this guy to the jail, threw him in the in the drunk tank. I threw him in it, but we put him in the drunk tank, and you know, I'm getting ready to put my paperwork and all this together. And then it was just a little you know, he's the little glass window that he looked through and I said, yeah, man, what you mean? And he said, he said, sir, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but is there any chance I can come out of here? He's like someone took a dump in the toilet. Here it's overflowing, it's disgusting. And here he's like, look, I'm sorry for the way everything went before, but you know, like, you mind if I if I just can at least come out and sit down and said, yeah, of course. And you know something that I learned in my time with the fire department, where I would see the ESU guys and they would use a line pretty often. They would say, listen, if you behave like a gentleman, you'll be treated like a gentleman. And they would usually follow it up with, you know, if you behave like an animal, then that's the way you'll be treated because we'll put you in a cage. But you know, I would use the first half of that often because the second part's implied. And you know I would say, listen, if you behave like a gentleman, well for the times that a rest with it. If you behave like a lady, then that's the way you'll be treated. You know, like if you want to meet me up here, I get up quick. But you know, the important thing is that you're able to bring it back down. And this guy brought it back down. And I had no hard feelings. I mean, me and this guy, we're knocking the dog shit out of each other, you know, an hour before that, you know, his eyes all swollen up, and you know, I'm dirty and sweaty and now got a lot of paperwork to do, and the guy's just asking for just a monk of respect. And as soon as I did that, I said, yeah, of course, man, come on out's disgust them here. I'm sorry. I didn't realize the toilet was like that, and sat him down and cuffed him around front. And you know the way that that guy responded that when we eventually went to court, you know, he would tell the judge He's like, you know, this officer was very respectful to me. I apologize for the way I behaved. It wasn't right. You know, this guy didn't deserve a kind of thing, whereas if I had just got in there and you know, slammed the door, I don't care. You know, you deserve it. This is where you ended up. You know, this is a consequence of your stupid choices. You know, again, I would go back to listen, man, I mean, you know you did what you did. You know, motivations being what they are what they are, and outside of like you know, molesting kids and stuff like that, like most of the other things that people do criminally, you know, you could step back and at least say, all right, I understand why they're making some of these choices. I wouldn't make them, but at least you can kind of be empathetic to that, so, you know, and being able to do that and like like you said, just showing people respect it is paid dividends and you know, like that's the cool thing. I think that is one of the cool things about working in a local community is once you establish that and if you're fair and you play and you you are consistent with the way you apply things, I think people respect that, and they they respect it on a higher end of as far as people that are extremely violent they go they I feel like they will come back and go, this is not one that I need to try, right And and I think, I think there's a lot of cops out there that are i know, in our generation, that are benefiting from a generation or two before us that established like, no, that's not it is not going to work here. It is you were going to pay to a higher price than you think for what you're about to do. And people people are making that assessment every single time they're interacting with a cop. You know, they look at it and thinking, does this is this guy giving off that energy that if I go and test this like I can, you might I'm gonna come out on the winning end of that. And you know, and you're right. I think that, you know, the respect comes from the way that you've treated people, the way that they see you treating all the people I used to work off duty in the projects, and you know, I'd interact with those people constantly, just walking around talking to them whatever else, so that when it came time to a law enforcement action, you know, they would you know, they would say hi, or they'd be like, hey, man, don't don't mess with this. Dude, you know, or they don't want to, or sometimes they would even ask for you by name. You know, you'd be out there dealing with somebody and it would they'd be interacting with some asshole cop or not you know, not driving, and they'd be like, hey's you know where Smithy or you know, or other officers that they had good, uh interactions with, and you go out there and you'd be like, all right, man, relaxed, let's just get that cuffs on you to get this taken care of. And then, you know, and it would de escalate that and that was by you know, establishing that trust and that that respect with the you know, with this. And I think about some of the guys that I've worked with with your with agencies around here, won't be specific, and they were some of the best people as far as serving warrants and stuff like that. They would rarely have they get a stack of warrants. They'd be done by the end of the day because they call them and say, you don't want me to come to your house and find you, like, come turn yourself. In transition to like what it's like, you're now a team leader or team commander of attack team and you know the level of proficiency that each one of them have to have as an individual, but also as a team. Let's talk about what it's like to have a team like that. As a leader of it, what do you put into it and what do you value? Yeah, so, you know, I love to talk about the team. I'm proud of it. I'm proud to be a part of it. I've been getting involved in the SWAT team in two thousand and four and you know, kind of made my way up through you know, different levels of leadership to where I am now where i'm you know, kind of the overall commander of the team. And you know, one of the things that I expect and expect from you know, the guys that are there is, you know, is that level of dedication and that you know, that sense of uh, you know, accomplishing the mission and you know that common goal and you know, in the same way where you're dealing with with, you know, folks on the street, you know, in a leadership role, you you fall into a lot of the similar things. You treat people with respect, you value the things that they're that they're doing, and so the level of proficiency that those guys have to have. You know, part of part of that is establishing that right, setting expectations and saying, all right, for every operator on the team, here are minimum standards. Minimal standards you need to be able to check before we even start getting into some more specialized things. And of course in you know, in that realm, there's so many specialized elements that they come with with SWAT, and there's a lot of there's a lot of really fancy tools and weapons and things of that nature that that we use. Tactics certainly that we employ, but none of those things are worth a hell of beans if you don't have the right people to use them and to execute it. I know that when we come up with a plan, even if they go in there and something kind of knocks that off course a little bit, that those guys can pivot and adjust and and still accomplish the mission, you know, staying focused on what that is and you know, making sure that they are trained and equipped to be able to encounter whatever it is that comes up. And you know, I was talking to somebody the other day about it, and they were asking about the team, and I said, you know, we are We're like the Swiss Army, knife for a police work. You know, when regular people in the world need help, they call nine to one, the police show up. When the police need help, they call SWAT, and you know, we have to go in there to fix whatever. And you know, in the the twenty some odd years I've been involved in SWAT, I mean some of the things we've been called to deal with are just like, well, this doesn't really seem like a SWAT thing, but I guess we're gonna have to go in there and fix it. And you know, because you have to be you have to be multi faceted and being able to attack a thing. And when I see attack it, a lot of times that's just sort of mentally, how do we attack this problem? How do we how do we solve this? And really police work is problem solving, you know, SWAT is just doing problem solving at a higher level, and you know, usually a higher level, higher risk, and you know, potentially worse consequence is in a more dangerous environment, which is I think is the appeal for the people that get involved in it, because if the people that aren't right for it, they can't operate in that kind of environment. They did wash out, they don't last long there. But the ones that stay and stay you know, true to that, you know, can operate in that environment and they you know, it's it's a different kind of mindset that you have to have. I mean it's not it's not for everybody. Well, talk about the talk about the mindset of a problem solver. How do you identify problem solvers? Because there's a lot of people that whearbads have a gun and enforce you know, enforce the law, that are not problem solvers, but they they're able to make it. What what do you look like? What what do you look for in a problem solver on your team? So in a lot of ways, it's similar to like K nine. Okay, right, So when we're picking out a dog and we're trying to determine if this dog would be appropriate in this role, you're looking for certain drives and you know those drives are obviously different in people, but similar in the sense that you know, you want somebody with the drive and passion to be able to come in here and you know, just dive in, be committed to you know, whatever that is, and to be able to do that in a team environment, because you can have people that are high level problem solvers, but don't interact well with with with a team environment. You know, they're you know, the the solo artists, the you know, the ones that at the end of it, they want to make sure everybody knows that they were the ones that accomplish this mission or they were the ones that you know, got the big prize and big pilot dope, not the three or four other people that were involved to help make that happen. So so it's not just necessarily you know, being that high level problem solver, but somebody that you know that I know that can kind of operate within that team environment because you're so dependent on everybody else to be able to accomplish that. You know, It's like, you know, if you have Aaron Judge on your team, you know, and you got you know, the greatest baseball player that's playing right now, and everybody else on the team is a single a ball player, You're gonna lose. It doesn't matter how great that guy is. Everybody you have to have a certain level of proficiency amongst that group because you know, you just can't win, and you can't win in that world, not not with SWAT, with just one superstar, and and. So You've got a lot of dudes that that know the job, know what's necessary to accomplish a mission. How do you lay out a mission? I think one of the things that we suffer from in law enforcement is maybe not in a tactical environment, but I think we are we are. We've talked about a couple of things before that we won't go into about, like perception, but like how good of a job are we doing in leadership? Like the people in leadership saying, hey, this is our mission and the mission is not like chasing something that constantly moves. A mission is just like for you talk about like when you get a mission in SWAT, what is that mission and what is the conclusion? That's one part of it. The second part of it is I think people have a mission they if the end result is like to safely remove someone from a house safe for example, and there's a lot of mistakes made getting to that point, does that not give people a false sense of security of like, hey, we're really good. We didn't get shot this time. We didn't. And I think that one of the things that I like about the Tier one type groups is how are they like you screwed up? Like we were we were exposed when we came around that corner. So we didn't get shot, we didn't we didn't lose anybody because of it. But like, if we continue to do that, that is not a victory. That is that is we chanced the point of victory. Yeah. Yeah, So the so the two parts that I'll address the second part first, because if luck is part of your strategy to you know, avoid something calamitous, then then you're not doing yourself at a true service for what that is because and it's at the end of every mission that we do, every single time, there's got to be a self assessment and there has to be you know, that that team reflection right to be able to say, okay, guys, what did we You know, we'll talk through how the whole thing unfolded, and then we'll say what did we screw up here? And to be able to do that and feel comfortable in that group that you can say that and know that you know, you could say, what I weren't a hurting somebody's feelings. You know, we go through and you know, we say, hey, you know the snipers deployed in this in this spot, but you guys completely screwed this up. You could if you couldn't see anything, you should have been over here and you should have known better, or you know, whatever the case may be, right, and we'll go through at the end of every mission, say all right, you you know, somebody came off the back of the truck. You guys completely broke cover and there's nobody covering these these threat factors. And you know, we'll go through and be like, yep, that totally happened. To screw that up. And one of the things that I do, especially as a leader, is to feel comfortable enough or let everybody else feel comfortable enough to make honest assessment to what I'm doing too. I don't walk on water, I don't pretend to think that I can't make mistakes do and owning those mistakes, especially in front of that group, builds trust, builds trust in my decision making process. So you know, we'll go through and I'll say, all right, guys, you know anything that I did that that didn't make sense that because you know, we could talk through it, maybe help them understand it, or you know, maybe I'll significant sure and I'll be like, you know, you're exactly right, and I could I could have done better with that, and I will do better with this next time. That makes us better as a team. So having that that self assessment has got to be, you know, part of you know, the strategy for you know, anything that's that's even approaching a Tier one status like we are that, you know, for us to be able to have that that honest self reflection and not worry about hurting someone's feelings or hurting your own feelings, you know, being able to say you're right, man, I completely screwed that up, and I own that that was on me, you know, thankfully that you know, nothing bad happened. But so that was the first part of your your I guess that was the second part of your question. The first part talking about mission. Yes, do we as leaders fail at making it clear what that mission is? And I would say largely yes. And what that leads to is confusion downrange for people like what exactly am I supposed to be doing out here? And you know, I never want anybody in that environment, you know, when when they're in some kind of hot situation. So you know, I talked to and talk through my decision making process and help to imprint that on the team, whether it's the team leaders or you know, the different operators that are that are going out to accomplish the mission. To know, all right, everything that you do is based on two different things. One of those is what's the mission any other one's priorities life, And where those two line up and come into focus, that's where the answer is. And so for me, you know, the mission may change. You know, we could start and it's a warrant service. So the mission is to secure the house, you know, so you could turn it over to the case agent detectives to take care whatever. And we get there and we encounter gun fire, and now the mission is different. So now there are people inside. Is it may be a hostage situation, So now the mission is to protect innocent life. And then we do that. Let's say that we negotiate the release of hostages. Well, now the mission is different. Now the mission is apprehension, you know, for the suspect. And you know, so that can that can move. There could be an ebb and flow as far as that goes. But to be able to make that clear as we're going through, and you know, I'll talk through afterwards and again in these debriefs where you know, in the honest assessment assessments and say, okay, why were you why were you continuing to why were you calling negotiations for a guy that wasn't willing to talk to us? And we sat around for an hour waiting for negotiations negotiations to show up, and then they showed up and they said, all right, the guys don't want to talk to us. Okay, well we already crossed that bridge an hour ago. Now we're wasting time. So you know, what is the mission here? The mission is is you know, I give this guy an opportunity to talk, he chooses not to. He's talking all the people out outside, and now it's apprehension and let's, you know, get him to other let's convince him to surrender to us. We have to go in there and get him. And you know, so understanding what that is is so critical for the success of whatever it is we're hoping to accomplish. So having a clear view of what that mission is is important. And sometimes if it starts to get a little money there, that's where it falls back on the leader to be able to say, all right, guys, let's let's understand what it is we're here to do and what we're doing. We've transitioned into this. I think one of the things I think about leadership is I think they look at initiatives as mission. I think about savee Streets initiatives, things like that. But that should be like a ramp up to accomplish your mission. That shouldn't be in and of itself the mission. I think we come up with task forces, we come up with all these different things to to to as just like a blip on the screen, but there's no sustained activity. And like what you said, I think people lose side of the fact that in tactic co operations is you better be moving towards a solution. It's not like, hey, we just showed up, We've got our equipment, We've got all these things we have. We you are working towards a solution and you are the solution. It's not like you're gonna call somebody else to fix it for you. And I think that's what's lost on a lot of people, is working like working solutions to accomplish your mission. And I think it starts at the very top. What you described with your team is top down leadership. You're not asking them to do anything that you haven't done yourself, which includes being honest about like, hey, I screwed this up, like there were some other things that I can do, and I'm gonna train and I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to you know, I am going to address this problem. And I think, like what you said with Canine is we put we push them to the point of failure. When we see that failure, we find a way to train past it, and that dog is better. I've told people all the time, like the best dog I had made more mistakes than any other dog, but he was better because he made those mists and training and we learn from them. Right, So you you have anything else as far as mission, I think I think that's what frustrates me in law enforcements. I think we get distracted, and like you said, it's really difficult when you go, hey, we're going to be we've got zero tolerance. We're gonna go out there and arrest somebody. We're going to do this. They go out and arrest somebody, they end up going hands on with the man, have to fight them, and then there's a video of the fight and they're like, well wait a minute, Like that No, that's not our mission, Like we're going to change it again. How how like from the level that we level that you operate on and like for me perspective, how do we get leadership that is or how do we get the public educated on what we're going to do so we we don't continue to fall back? If that makes sense, Yeah, it does. And you know the example of you know the video and you know a use of force or something looking ugly, and you know, where we establish trust is being authentic. I think to the community we're serving and to the people that we have, we're asking to accomplish that mission on our behalf. So you know, if you say to you know, whatever the officers, you know, whatever group to go, Hey, crime is out of control. The mission is to reduce crime. This is how we're going to do it. And you know, whatever tactics get deployed when that comes back and starts to look ugly or make it uncomfortable for the for the bosses, like they've got to have the they have to have the administrative courage to be able to get in front of a camera and say this looked hard, this looks terrible. Violence is terrible. Using force is bad. However, you know, when we're using force, it's because it's reaction to you know, somebody in the community that's making bad decisions, and you know, and we don't want to use force. But compliance you have is what we're looking for exactly. And but you have to have the capability to do violence to accomplish that, and I think that's what people start to get squeamish. And you know, again not to say that, you know, we should be heavy hand that are just coming out here and brutalizing people. Of course not violence should be the last resort, but it doesn't mean that we can't ever use it, because then what happens is is that you know, people run rough shot and they don't. You don't have the enforcement part. You can't back up what you're hoping youone force, And I think to be able to message that it's not I don't think it's a difficult concept. I think when you start to run away from that and say because you see it often and I've seen it, you know, I'm I do a lot of work through the through the PBA and get involved in a lot of critical in since officers involved in shootings whatnot, and I've seen through through the years my experience with that, that the bosses that come out right off and say I don't know all the facts, but what I do know is is that I know this officer they probably have done the right thing here. Well, that there will be a fair investigation will show that. I suspect it will probably reinforce that belief if it's not if something was screwed up here, if this officer didn't do the right thing, we'll take appropriate action. Because there's nobody that hates bad cops more than good cops, and they are the exception to the norm. And when you do that, and officers see and know that they have the they have the support of the people who are supposedly leading them to accomplish these different missions, they will follow them through anything I've watched, I've watched interviews with that, you know, with different leaders that have done similar kinds of things, and I thought, I would work for that guy for half of what I'm making, you know, at different points. From because you know that you know, you know what they I think. Sometimes people and I know you as a team leader of that you it is a really bad feeling when you're like man I hope. I know I'm going to have to put my guy. I'm putting them in harm's way, and I want to know that they have my back. And I think that is one of the hardest things in law enforcement is from a leadership standpoint, making sure that they have your back. And honestly, like I feel like one of the biggest problems they have, and I'm extremely biased when it comes to this, is I think law enforcement sucks at messaging. We suck at it. We have public information officers. What are they doing. They're just regurgitating facts like use social media in a way that been like we've seen it used for bad. We've seen what they do, you know, like the whole Russer gate, all these different things that they talk about. Why can't we use that technology and that information for good? And what we have to do is we have to do a better job of messaging. So because like I will tell you this. As such your department, but some of the messaging that your department has as far as hiring retention, they are kicking. I mean they are kicking. They're kicking it through the through the goalpost. They are doing a phenomenal job. If they can just and if if agencies can if they can figure that out, let's figure out how we can do enforcement and how we can message that. Sure, no, I mean there's no doubt that. You know, again, we could be doing a great job. But going back to that that point before about perception, you know, if the public is perceiving something different, well it doesn't matter how good a job you're doing. You know, if you don't have the support of the community that's given you the authority to do that job in the first place, well then you spend your wheels. And so a big part of that is making sure that you know when something bad happens, when something that comes out that looks ugly or uncomfortable, that you have the courage to be able to stand in front of the camera and be like, yeah, this is this is bad. You know, when when a dog bites somebody, it's probably not going to be pretty. If somebody has to use a baton, then you know there's a there's gonna be a bad physical result of that, which is why we don't want to But we have to train to be able to do that, because you know, you can't just expect police officers to come out here and just you know, not be able to take control the situation because you know, we're out numbered, you know, any any given point. You know, if I got you know, fifteen to twenty cops that are working in a city of one hundred thousand people, well, I mean fifteen to twenty people. Can't control that many people. You know, you have to have the support of the community at large and things of that nature. But it's all it's all messaging. Because the converse of the example I gave before is where you have police officers that are involved in something and then you get the squeamish bosses. They come out and be like, oh yeah, you know, and then jump right to the to the loud voices in the community that are you know, putting down the police or asking you know, the police administrators to bend a knee, you know, to the whims of the of the loud minority of people that are making noise about the police. And really the damage that you do with that, I think not just in the community, but within the agency, where you lose the trust of the people you're that you're tasked with leading, and when you do that, you completely sabotage any any type of success yeah. I think you look at some of the cities like Minneapolis and places like that where they've tried to transition, they are going back to the model that worked. And I don't know, Like for me, I think messaging a simple messages. This is a violent between a trained officer and a and a and a predator. I mean, bottom line is there were We don't arbitrarily choose who we have to interact with. Usually it's a call for service, it's somebody that if we let them go. What you're seeing on camera is probably going to occur at someone's house who is not trained or prepared to deal with that level of violence. And so, yes, it. Doesn't look good, but it looks a whole lot worse when you're when you're trying to feel that yourself with no training or any any ability to deal with that type of situation. So we're gonna put this show out around September eleventh, and I know that's I feel like I just slammed the brakes on and we're gonna spend this bitch around, but we are. Let's talk about September eleventh as a survivor, as a responder of September eleventh, talk about like some of the twenty four years this year, is that right? And so they'll have a big twenty fifth celebration, talk about what it's like to lose someone on September eleventh, and then go and you know, to go to a memorial service and realize, like, like you said, then the last the last time we talked is like people. They talked about people being lost. Now they're murdered. A large group of people were murdered. Talk about what it's like for you on September eleventh. You know, the eleventh is always such a funny time for me because, you know, in a lot of ways, an event that seems like happened yesterday, you know, in a lot of ways, feel like it happened a million years ago. You know, a thing that I lived, you know, up close and personal firsthand. You know, when I reflect on it or when I talk about it, a lot of ways, I feel like I'm talking about something I'm detached from. You know, I have I have artifacts in the in the museum of the Memorial up in New York, and you know, next to the stuff they have on display, you know, because of course I had like like all my gear and stuff it's just covered in muck. And you know, I put it in a garbage back for years and and then to put it on my steps because I'm like, what I'm gonna I don't want to throw it away, but you know, keep it forever. And so you know, I donated all this stuff to the to the museum. So anyway, you know, when when I go to the museum, I see the stuff there on display, and I'll stand back and I'll just watch, I mean people people going up there reading about me and you know, absorbing, you know, the the that event through, the different artifacts are on display, and I just feel it's this weird sort of detachment that I that I have with it. It's it's it's a hard kind of emotion to to describe. But for the eleventh, you know, the reason why I talk about it, the reason why I talk about it in the venues I do, which is typically at the Police Academy and Fire Academy. You know, go through classes and we'll talk about you know, critical stress and you know, going through events like that and you know, surviving them, making sure that your head stays screwed on to you know, push through whatever kind of thing like that. Is going on and just kind of helping to teach other people from my experience because I mean, I mean, there were plenty of things I struggled with for many years after that, PTSD wise and hell, to this day, I still can get on a plane without being pretty heavily medicated. So you know, so you know, when I think about that and how the eleventh is for me, it's it's surreal, Jewet. I don't. It doesn't. It doesn't seem real. It doesn't seem like you know something that big, you know, something that has changed the world. You know that that like just me, I just feel like a normal guy, you know, and you know that my family has paid such a played such a pivotal role in and has had to pay a price for It's it's hard for me to kind of wrap my mind around because you know, when I do those things, and the reason why I talk and that's the point I was trying to make, was that I do it because it's not for me. You know, when I give those presentations, I make sure that right the beg end of it. You know, I explain to people why I'm doing this and why I'm not doing it. I don't do it because I wanted to to link up a fan club. You know, I don't want to you know, have a bunch of people just to you know, you know, pat me on the back and tell me what I'm I'm I'm a great guy, whatever else like that. In fact, as open as I am about all this stuff, that's the one thing that makes me uncomfortable because I like to divert that attention to where it belongs, which is the you know, on the group of people that don't have you know, the the ability to be able to continue to live, breathe, or to have a voice to talk about that situation. To me, you know, one of my biggest roles after that event has just been as a witness, you know, to help people understand what that event was really all about, what it was, what it was like from the perspective of somebody that was you know there, you know where I was. So so you know, for the eleventh you know, a lot of that stuff is you know, I like to bring it. I like to give it the attention or divert the attention to where it belongs. And you're saying that it belongs with the victims in the families that like you said the last time you said that they didn't get to walk a child down. Now they didn't get to you know, kiss their kid good night ever again, you know, And that's I think that's a huge thing. That there's no doubt and for for all the people that were murdered. You know, there is a special class that goes in it. It's a reason why you know, down at the memorial all the first responders have their own section for the memorial garden, and it's because the difference between them and the other people that were murdered is that the other people that were murdered were just victims of circumstance. You know. They were at the wrong place at the wrong time. I mean, they were on the wrong floor, they were on the wrong flight. But there were hundreds of police officers, of firefighters and medics who made a conscious decision to show up down there and realized that when they stepped off that rig, when they stepped out of that that uh that squad car or out of the back of that ambulance and looked up and said five five fighters going to die here today. You know, cops are going to die here today, and then filed that away somewhere and still went to work, you know, the moving in the opposite direction of the crowd that's fleeing, and knew what the cost potentially could be and still move forward and did it anyway. So I think that's one of the things that I think is key in my mind is I think to the average human being, they'd look at it and if you've never been in a fire, you don't know what it's like. If you've never been in a violent confrontation, you don't. Know what it's like. So talk a little bit about what if you can put yourself in your dad's position, with all the training and experience he had leading his guys in there, how much conflict was he going through just leading his dudes in there, leading his guys in there, but also like being so hyper focused but knowing in the back of his mind this is not survivable. Yeah, you know it's I do like to think about that with my dad, because you know, he I got to see video of my dad and the lobby, and that dude was he was focused and and you know, I think knowing even what the what the potential costs could have been, it was we're going in here, We're we're going to do what we're paid to do. You know that is it's it's a different kind of mindset that that comes with people in those roles that makes them successful and being willing to move forward in there. And it's you know, after the eleventh there was a lot of controversy that came out about the radio system, specific specifically with the fire department, because the radios were not good and there was some debate whether or not when the order to leave those buildings that was put out by the command because of the potential for the imminent collapse when that order was put out, that the order may not have gotten to the fireman that were in the building, and because of that, they died because they didn't they didn't have good radios with good communication. And I think, what an insult, What an insult to that group of men, because I like to believe that if they heard that command, if my dad heard that, it wouldn't have mattered. There are still people in here, and we're not leaving until they're out. And you know that, you know what, what a way to detract from that sacrifice that those people made. And you know it's because again it's you've got to be focused on what that mission is, and the mission is to preserve and save life, not to do it recklessly, not to go and you know, going harm's way just for Harm's way's sake, knowing it's a suicide mission. You can't you can't help somebody. I mean, obviously that doesn't make sense. But but if there is a chance, then you got to go take that chance, because you know, it may not be their mother, but it's somebody's mother. It may not be you know, their brother that's in there, but it's somebody's And you know, they they do that on behalf of other people, and you know, and that's where it really is what separates you know, people in that community and the first responding community really from everybody else. And again when I talk about it at the police Academy, it doesn't make us better. I'm not better than other people. You know. I am different, you know, because you know, and the analogy I like to use is that, you know, especially in law enforcement, you know, you drive it down a road and theres a cop getting the ship beat out of him on the side of the road in a traffic stop that's gone bad. And if there are a hundred cars that pass. Chances are ninety nine of them are all going to be doing the same thing. I'm won one. You guys better send police officers over that, because you know there's a bad situation and they keep driving right. They don't have the skills, they don't have to. You know, I'm not saying that they I have some you know, expectation that they should pull over. But the difference is is that you or me, We're going to pull the car over and I'm gonna get my ass kicked out. They would that guy. But you know, that mindset makes us very different than, you know, than the rest of the general populace. And it's the same mindset that says, yeah, people are gonna die here, and I might be one of those people, but we still got work to do, and we're gona go in here. We're gonna take care of business anyway, you know, pushing, you know, pushing a team into a into an environment where you know they are putting themselves in harm's way on behalf of other people, on behalf of innocent people, on behalf of you know whatever, civilians. You know I've done that before, where you know I'm standing in a cp I lay out the mission. I send everybody down range and you know, they're encountering gunfire and you know, having been in firefights and you know, knowing what that's like and knowing that I'm not there to support them physically, but I gonna listen to it on the radio, and I still have to have enough you know, sense of mind to be able to you know, continue to direct resources and everything else goes with it. You know, some of the hardest things I've ever done as a commander. And you know, to listen to you know, guys get on the radio, like my team get on the radio and say may day, may day, and I'm like, you guys are gonna have to figure it out. There's no there's nobody else coming to help you. You are the help. And you know, so, I don't know, it's it's a different kind of you know, mindset that that kind of goes into that that kind of work, and that that that profession, you know, the first responding professions. So on September eleventh, when you celebrate it, what would you like to say to the general population that watched it but didn't live it, What would you like to say to them. You know, celebrate I don't think is the right kind of word, but reflect, you know too, to spend some time to think about the You know, those people, you know, they're not jumpers to human beings, they're not passengers on the plane. They're people, you know, and you know, any life is so precious and any loss of that is a tragedy. And then when you deal with that and multiply it by three thousand, you know, the enormity of what that tragedy looks like is not something that should just be you know again, kind of washed or water it down by the by the passage of time twenty four years doesn't make it any less a tragedy. And you know, it's amazing now. I mean, you know, I'll teach the police Academy and you know there are students that are in there and weren't even alive. You know, the only thing they know about September eleventh is you know, what they're read in the textbook, and it's no different than it was for you and me if we read about Pearl Harbor or you know, other things that happened before us, you know, other types of tragedies on that level. But we still we pay homage. We give it the honor it deserves, and we reflect and we spend time giving the proper respect to the people who were who were murdered. And you know, to me, I think that's the biggest thing. I think, you know, staying staying on target as far as the you know what that anniversary is the anniversary of and and you know, because again it's just it's a it's crazy to think about what actually happened, man like commuter jets flying into buildings and buildings falling down on people, and and you know, it's just, I don't know, it's it's a it's a difficult thing to wrap your mind around. I've been trying to do it for almost twenty four years. But but again, I think that to answer your question, you know what, what I would want people to do. The reason why I talk about it is because I want people to to pay honor to the to those people that made that ultimate sacrifice. In a way it honors the profession and honors the you know, the law enforcement, firefighting professions and ems professions that you know that there are people out here as evil and has screwed up as the world is, they're still willing to go into battle on your behalf. You know, the George Orwell quote talking about you know, people sleep peaceably in their bed because rough men stand, you know, are willing to do violence on their behalf. It's it's true, and I think that it's you know, after September eleventh, I don't think there was a fireman in a country and even a lot of cops that could have went into any any store and got a coffee and how to pay for it. People were so proud of those professions. They they paid respect and homage to you know, the sacrifice that those folks did, and kind of push that onto the profession at large, and they realized that I don't know who this cop is, I don't know who this fireman is, but they're probably willing to die on my behalf. That's special and that deserves that little bit of respect. And you know, we we lose sight of that, and people have short memories, and especially in the law enforcement capacity, you know, people lose out of that stuff very quickly, and you know, then just try to find something bad and you know, paint that bloodbrush on everybody. I think the thing that bothers me more than anything in law enforcement and in general is the realization the same types of people that committed that horrendous, those horrendous acts on September eleventh, they're still out there and we are spending so much time as Americans destroying ourselves and people that have that there might be a different pathway to it, But you want to talk about a mission like, let's let's as a as a community, as a law enforcement community come together and go, Hey, this is our mission, and let's support each other. Let's let's stop and as Americans, let's stop going after each other. There is a whole there's nothing any more evil than what was done that day, and that evil is still out there. The hijackers that committed those acts, some of the people that were taken out on the battlefield in Iraq and Afghanistan are gone, But that thought process in other countries are just as determined as the people sitting on that plane knowing it's going to crash and kill a ton of people. Sure, and the people that are orchestrated. I think that by and large, two you know, varying degrees, those people still exist, and even the ones that don't, there are plenty of other people that are like that. Other people that learn from that lesson and said, yeah, I'll take that and let me see if I could bring it to a different level. And you know, one of the biggest lessons from the eleven is to show how being an open society like we are, how vulnerable we are, you know, and we are completely vulnerable, and that is part of the risk that comes with living in a free and open society. You know. Now we've sacrificed a lot of those those freedoms on behalf of securities that we think that we have, but we're still very vulnerable. And I think that you know, again, you know, to kind of circle back to a point where we talked about last summer, I think most people just don't realize that, you know, that level of evil is out there in the world, and they get reminded every now and then, you know, something like that, like the eleventh will come up and just sort of, you know, remind everybody about how screwed up people can be. But you know, like I mentioned, it's hard to wrap your mind around, and most people just would rather not you know, they're rather just kind of focus on you know, the uh, you know what, and you know, it's just again, this needs to be a balance. I don't mean that we you know, we walk around this heightened state of you know, every every dark corner there's somebody in there, but you've got to be aware of it. And you know, it's a uh. There were a lot of lessons to be learned from the eleventh and I think that, you know, twenty four years later, we're we're forgetting a lot of those and you know, to potentially to our detriment. And because I don't ever want to see anything like this happen ever again. I just don't want to be part of it. I don't want to and my loved ones were my countryman be part of it. It's say, you know it, Yeah, it changed the world. There were good things that came from it, bad things that came from it. But at the end of the day, was it. It was. It was tragic and you know, sad, brother, wh brother. I appreciate your time. You're always welcome here and uh, like I said, thanks for coming on and thank you for your service and the sacrifices that your family may thank you. To appreciate
