All right, I'm glad to have Kevin spit here with me today. He's one of the four in my opinion and a lot of other opinions, people's opinions. One of the foremost firearms instructors in the Conwealth of Virginia, probably on the East coast, does a phenomenal job instructing, retired from the local sheriff's department, has a lot of a lot of insights on tactics and things like that, and I wanted him to come in and just kind of talk about what his experiences were. So I'm glad to have you, Kevin, tell us a little bit about how you grew up, where you grew up, and all that good stuff. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. Well, I've never watched the podcast much, been much less been part of one. Well, you'll definitely watch this one. Yes, So this is all new to me. Okay. Yeah, I was born and raised Camp County, Okay, went to Brooklyn High School. Okay, I thought had a pretty normal childhood. When people here by childhood, they say things that I was raised a little different than most. But uh, what do you think that is the most different about your childhood? As supposed to when you talk to other people. I think it's just a family thing. I mean, I hear that the schmidser just raised a little different than most. But smet with the double tea not to tea. Yeah right, double trouble. But now, uh, I often tell people that, uh, my daddy is a mean is sober man I've met in my life, and uh, I've never seen him take a drink, but you know he was meaner the most drunks I've ever seen when. He Okay, so so Brokeville. When you went to Brookeville, what was it like? Uh, you played athletics, correct played football? Well, I played. I played some some baseball, uh but uh but football. Yeah, And so you were good enough in football to go where I've got. Uh. I was offered scholarships on just about most of the East Coast D one schools and and uh, against my better judgement, my parents wanted me to go to v A. So that's where I went. Not that I have I love u v A. My wife loves v A. Sou you know, we followed well used to. It's just we don't follow as much as we did. But you know, school was not my thing. So school's not your thing. U v A ain't your thing. Okay, So but yeah, I played at Brookville and then went to u v A on a scholarship. What position did you play? I played defensive tackle in high school. But in high school I was six that's uh, that's exactly what I wait a day, so the same size I am right now. I went to EVA trying to play defensive tackle. Uh. And every day at practice. Uh, both the tack the offensive tackle and the offensive guard that I went against every play I was on scout team. Uh. Both went to the pros. So they both were north of three hundred pounds. And they both flattened. They beat the hell out of me daily. Uh, I mean every minute of every play. So you go to and they moved me to defensive end, Okay, to what's called an edge rusher. So that's where I ended up playing my college was a edge rusher. Okay. So how long did you stay at EVA? And then I stayed there barely a semester? And I decided, first of all football, I was a gym rat. I was not a football player. I was I was fast. All my cousins was fast. I mean the fastest cats and we raced all the time, and so I was and I was a gym rat, so I was strong and fast, so they saw an athlete. But I could care less. I don't know how in the world. I mean, you got kids today that are training to get a scholarship to college. So I don't know how I got a scholarship to college when I didn't even want it. You worked hard, that's why. Well I worked hard in the gym, but that's about it. Uh. But no, I So I left there and I said, you know this ain't for me. I don't I don't want to play football. So then I went to work. I left there and I took a job as building houses, and we started framing the house and everything was going good until it was time to get on the roof. And uh. And I was on the roof and and they was gonna walk edge and nail the rafters and I was supposed to walk the rafters across his board in the hereuse, I'm two hundred and twenty pounds, I'm walking across this rafter and they just stuck a it was a two or six, and that thing bowed in the middle and we I was there over the kitchen floor, and I said, you know, it ain't a whole lot holding this thing. And that's when I realized I was probably a better football player than I was a coffee So, uh so you didn't like the heights and well, I didn't like I didn't like walking across that roof, I mean that board. So i'd been offered so so back in those days, other schools couldn't offer you a scholarship because my contract was with u v A and I had left and I had no intentions of ever going back, but I had started through alumni, had been getting messages, hey, if you will call Clemson, if you'll call some of these other schools, they'll offer you. They'll they'll take you full scholarship. So the transfer, no, no, there was no transfer. As a matter of fact, I had to go in when I left uv A. I had to go in and see George Welsh was a coach, and I wanted and I talked to him and he said, you realize you need to leave here on good terms because I don't have to sign this and I said, I don't care. I'm not going back to play football. Well, after getting on, you know, on a roof, I decided I. Want to play football. Well, I didn't want to really want to play football, but I didn't be on roofs either. Okay, Yeah, so I went u I said, well, I'm know you d one. You know, I just played some football, and so I went to Liberty and I went over and for a couple of years and and again just the other football thing wasn't for me. I had a you know, I had some injuries and uh, you played football, right, and you'll find and you know this. You got your joints and everything. You know, And I had a neck injury. And I had the neck injury at UVA going up against you know, six hundred pounds of pro football players, pretty much every i'd had. Uh. And back then, they encouraged you to hit with your head first, head first, helmet first, and so I was just I was leading, I mean every play helmet helmet with these guys. And it did some damage to my neck, and so I just said, you know, I couldn't feel my arm, and I said, you know, I don't really I don't really enjoy this anyway. So I decided this is this is not not what I want to do now. So I left there and just fast forward later I have I had next surgery for like twenty years later correct that problem. But anyway, no, I left when I left Liberty, that's when I went into law enforcement. Where was your first place. That you went law enforcement? Campbell County? So your your entire career was in Campbell County, by the entire full time career. So you go to Campbell County. We talked a little bit about it. What was the academy experience? Like I think these I think kids get spoiled. They're like, oh, we're at the armory and all this other stuff. But talk about like where you had to go to your. Our academy was only thirteen weeks. This was in nineteen eighty seven, So the cademy was and back then Central Virginia Criminal Justice Training Academy had two locations. They had one here in Lynchburg and they had one in the south end of the state down in Boyton, which is in Mecklenburg County. But our class was twenty eight people, which was back then, especially for board and it was a big class. It's a lot of game boardings back then. The game the game commission went through. I went through the same academy, so we uh, they couldn't the classroom and boarding wasn't big enough, so we went to an old elementary school in Chase City. Okay. So uh it compared to you know football that i'd had it, I didn't think it was that hard. I mean, the academics of it was nothing compared to to uv A. Uh So the academic part, just remembering everything on the test and you know, for testing purposes, was the most difficult. But physically it wasn't that bad. It wasn't militaristic, it wasn't uh uh, I think it it probably even then should have been. It was way more disciplined than it is now. And I think it should have been marching and stuff like that. Now y'all didn't run. It was We didn't do any pet at all. Uh Inching Now in Lynchburg they did, but Danny Boyton there was nowhere to do it. As a matter of fact, our defensive tactics was on the playground out back, and nowadays you got to roll out wrestling mats for the students, you know, in case they hit a boo boo. But back then it was just a We did defensive tactics on the dirt in the old playground and uh that's the only week we did p T they made they want to see everybody do pull ups. But the pull ups was on top, you know, the big swing sets it and the real tall ones that the tart and play on. That's how they climb up. You had to climb to get to the to the top. Just do your pull ups and uh. So how would you get down? Like you you just dropped the drop. I mean it won't bad, but uh, I mean, I guess you know, by time to reach up out, my feet was probably you know, full foot off the ground. So it was there. It wasn't like just stepping down then, you know. I mean if you had enough strength to do your pull ups and then shuffle back over to this to this, it. Slide down the side, I guess bright. But most of the students didn't make it to the pole, so that you know they could even make it up that much, let's do a pull up. Well, so you go through the academy, your first assignment is patrolling Campbell County. I do have a question because I'm just curious, what was your first firearm that your first side on that you carried? Uh? It was a revolver. It was Smith Weston's six eighty one three seven magnum so the. Head revolver, big heavy gun. Yeah, funny story. Speaking of the academy. So when we went through firearms, it was but a week long and it was just standing right here and shoot right there. That was basically it. I mean, it was still basically the same course as of fire that were we still do still do to this day. As far as the test, you know, the the the measurement of skill, some of the round count because has changed. There's a lot of you know, two rounds three seconds and some six rounds and eight seconds because most everybody in the academy still had revolves. Now keep in mind, I'd grown up in the woods and I loved the pistols, and I had killed just about everything you could you could kill in Virginia with a pistol before I never went to the academy, So I thought I was pretty good. But when I get to shoot me out there, I realized that double action I've always found. So I wasn't that good. I think my first score was seventy three. Did you try to cock it? They told us, You know, the classroom no cock and that you you had your double action. But the funny thing is, and I grew up watching Clint Eastwood is my man, you know right well, not dirty hair the Westerns. So I hit shot six. I don't know to this day, I don't know why I did it. It was just and I had this like the middle of the class. I fired, of course, five fire six rounds. I fired six rounds and I spun it back. To the host. Oh you what do you think? So you spun your revolver back? I was good. I mean, you know, I just spun it right back into the holster. And uh uh, what would you do if you, as a fireman started what would you do? Would you be in? Like all of Like, I can't believe they pulled that off. I think the reason I didn't the the the ass chewing that I got was probably not as bad as it should have been, was because you know, I wasn't a total idiot throughout the class. So I guess my reaction to this this, if it happened, and I'm the instructor out there, it would be based largely on what are as a student. Well, if they do it today with a semi automatic, then that's a whole different story. But if it wasn't empty, going I shot six times, I knew it was empty, and but I don't know why. I mean, it was just like I think I was happy with my hits and and uh so there that. Yeah, right back to the holster. All right, so you get done, so you start your patrol. I always laugh about like all the all the equipment people have these days. And I still remember in Campbell County, didn't you have to grease your own light bar because it was on a chain. The old twin sonics. Yeah, the ball lights was him square of the red on one side, blue on the other and they had a chain and it was like a grid, big bicycle chain. Yeah, and uh yeah, you had to every so often you'd have to you'd have to grease it, spray some w D Ford in it, and every now and then if that thing got loose, you'd have to take a link et. Okay, So yeah, there was there was some light bull maintenance there. It wasn't just put a switch on it and then take it somewhere that it doesn't work. You had to maintain your own equipment pretty much. So what do you remember the most any any story that stands out to you. I think what we talked about is some kind of first transport. What happened there, Well. That's that was. So I was hired three days before I started the academy. Okay, so the first two days I didn't even have a uniform. I just rode with uh, Lieutenant Joe Hall. To this day, he should be on the mount Rushmore of law enforcement. I mean he was. He was country and he was a man. Uh and I rode with him and uh, he just had to take no bs attitude. And so he was influential in my early law enforcement career. And the third day I got a uniform and they told me that I had to go to Southampton to pick up a prisoner. Okay, well back in those days there's no GPS. There's a paper map. That's what you get. Right. I've never driven a police car. I had never never had a uniform. I've never been a deputy copy in my life. I'm twenty one years old. And Joe said, he just meant, I need you to go down Southampton and I need you to get this fellow. And I said, I said yes, sir. He said there was a map. He said when you get down there, I need you to chain him up like Hoodini. I can do that. I said, okay, and he said uh. He said, you ain't got no training. He said, that's why I want you to chain him up. He said, put the leg irons on him, to belly chain on him, and handcuffs on him. I said, yes, sir, so uh he said, he said, And don't take all day. And I'm thinking Southampton, you know, the time might have been to the beach is on vacation. You're like, that's a that's a way. That's a long way, and we're not getting thirty or forty miles to the Gallon with that police car. Right. So and so the police car I had, it was on more. It was more. It was still brown and tan and back and then the edge of the cop and all the deputies called still brown and tan. So it's Brandon Tann. But it didn't have no ball lights. It's it had grill lights. This a little lollipop grill like right. And it was uh, it had a sireen you know in the console. Was As I was walking at the door, one of the sergeants told me, he said, don't forget you a cop now. He said, so speed limited is a suggestion, and I said, yes, sir, And I said so, I said, I said how fast can I go? He says, fast as you want? Oh Lord, I said, I'm four sixty. Yeah, okay. So uh so I went down Southampton. I got and I picked him up and I changed him all up, and uh and I'll enough to get the guy. I said, why am I? This guy had been in there out of jail. He so he had warped. He had been transported before, so he knew he won't have a change up like this, right, He said, why have I got to wear all use? And I didn't want to tell him because a brand new right? So would you tell him? I told him that. I said, well, because the last guy that I didn't that I didn't change up, tried to get away, and I said I shot him and I said I got in trouble. I said, I they told me not shooting nobody this week. No, don't shoot anybody else this week. So he said, well, yes, sir, I could do that. He behaves, it's coming on up the road. Well I don't have I stopped, but directions ain't my thing. And I ended up in Petersburg. I was what's coming back through Richmond ended up Petersburg. So I was totally lost, now really behind schedule. So finally got finally found Richmond, got back on four sixties, but now behind, and lieutenant had told me it's my first mission, you know, you know, and I'm late. Then I remember what the sergeant said, I'm a cop. I'm a cop. So when I hit full sixty, I said, I'm gonna go and open this thing up here. So I turned my I turned my blue lights on, which it was just reds, and I hit the Sirene box right and I had never been inside of a police called with sirene on and it didn't sound very strong. It was just it was real weak. And I said, well, maybe it's a louder on the outside. So I'm running a hundred miles and al priably out of the eighty five ninety coming on back down four six, I'm passed. I passed a troop on the side of the road. I get all the way back to Concord, uh and I know I made it all the way back to Russburg. And that's when I realized all I had was one blinking light in the grill and it was red and the sireen didn't work at all, So I reckon that truth. I thought that it was a volunteer fireman. Driving a police car. Yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah, So that was my That was my very first mission. Anything else you remember, like when you were doing patrol? Any any other good source from patrol or not not, I mean just routine. None that just pops in my head, I mean if yeah, we do. We worked eight hours and we toyed around with several shifts. The first one was the first one was you worked uh, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday off, Friday, Saturday Sunday. Then you would work Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday off Saturday, Sunday Monday. Then it would go back to Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. So you was basically off two weekends in a row every four weeks. That was the first schedule we worked. The second schedule we worked. Of course, in my history of law enforcement, the field division has always griped and complained about the schedule. So the second schedule, everybody wanted every other weekend off, and the cab to come up with an idea. You work seven days, seven days on and the Monday through Monday through Thursday, and Monday through Friday was eight hours, and Saturday and Sunday was twelve. Hours, so that was first twelve hours. You yes, so you'd work seven days straight, the last two days being twelve hour shifts. Well, mathematically, you only had to work Wednesday and Thursday of the next week because most of the time you'd get some overtime here and there, and you got one holiday every month, so you could take one of those days off every month, and the other one is usually comp time, and if you didn't, if you didn't have comp time, you could take one vacation day and you just pretty much worked a week off a week if you didn't have nothing going on, just working two days save them up and some other time. But your week to work was your week to work, and you couldn't take vacation on those. But there was only so midnight shift only had to work Monday through Friday. That's the only time midnight shift had to work. They had to work weekends, and it rotated every so it's day shift, evening shift, and then it was night shift. But of course people. Griped sounds like a really good skill. I liked it. I really did like it because you. Could plug a day in and you'd have a whole entire work. A week off week and it was basically eight hours. That's except for those two days on the weekends. And the weekends go quick anyway, and everybody. We would would complain on I'm just so burner by the time a week you incumbs. So they were toyed with, well, let's just start the week on Saturday. So you worked twelve hours Satday Sunday, then you worked Monday through Friday. They still butched. You will never make a cop happy, that's true. So what was it? So go now to when you're a your sergeant and then ultimately the field operations captain. What was the most difficult thing about being a supervisor like a line supervisor on the road. So I understand this. When I first started, I was my football career. I was hard headed, I was uncoachable to a large degree. My first few years as a deputy was very similar. It took me back then if you hadn't made sergeant in eight years, you weren't ever gonna be one. So eight years in I realized that I was on a sergeant and if I didn't change something, I never would be promoted so and it wasn't that hard to figure out why. So once I figured that out, my name started getting tossed around for promotions and everybody said, well, it's a sergialt position coming up, you can put in for it. I said, nope, you need to put in for it. I said, I don't think i'm the best quality, I'm the most qualified. And they said, well, then how will they ever know that you want to be And I said, well, how can I go in and honestly say I should you should pick me when I know you shouldn't pick me. So I never would put in for well, the one before the I was promoted, they convinced me to do it, and so I did. And so I sit in as a sheriff the UH the chief deputy in UH in Joe Hall, who was or the division commander, and the sheriff looked at me and he said, he said, tim me, why you think that you're the best for this job? And I said, well, I don't think I'm the best for this job. They looked at me like you had two heads and then said, well why are you here? I said. Everybody said I should put in for it to let y'all know that I wanted. I said, but I if I'm anything, I'm honest. I said, you know, I don't think I said he. They said, we who you think I ought to get it? And I said Lt. Guthrie. I said, uh. And he had come there about a year after I had been there about a year. And I said, but that's who I would pick. And they said really, I said yeah, I said, I said, I've worked with him. I said, I don't know. If y'all see his performance, I said, I really think he should be next sergeant. Interesting, Okay, well, thank you. They'll being pretty much into that conversation. Board, wasn't it? It was? I mean, I was honest. So uh so, then the next promotion, I did get it. I walked in the aisle, so I said, last time you asked me this question, I said, I can tell you right now, there's not even a close second. I should be it. I was it, and so I was sergeant. And I will preface this by saying I've done a lot. I've wore a lot of hats in my life. I've worked a lot of jobs, and of course law enforcement was the longest. Being a cop is the easiest job I have ever had. So don't let a cop come in here and tell you, well, this is so hard, it's so difficult. You know what you signed up for. Either you it or you're not. It wasn't a hard job, and being a sergeant was the easiest of them all. I still worked a shift, just like the deputies did. I still work a shift, but it you know, you led a crew. And I'm of the mindset that a supervisor is not there to do your work or to do the work. He is there to make sure the work gets done. Now, if it's a task that is beyond your capabilities, I will step in and I will do it. And that's what I was there for, is uh. And I did a lot of the dirty work, but I wasn't there to do your work for you. Uh. So I was a sergeant for about eight years and I was uh. I mean I saw sergeant sergeants come and go, and you know after that. So then so then you have an election, and I guess Terry Gaddy got sheriff and that's when you made chief or not chief deputy, but you were in charge of the field field vision. Uh. So uh so Terry Gaddy won the election, and and I hit pretty so Terry was the he was the sheriff at the time before him. Would never promote uh Gaddy to division commander, but he did make him a first sergeant, so basically he was doing field commander stuff without the title, but he was a first sergeant. Uh No, I think they had finally promoted him to lieutenant, and and he took some time off as you know, they're getting into a lot of details before the election, so they needed somebody to fill that role. So I pretty much was doing field commander stuff even as a regular sergeant. Because the rank was so much different. I think people people these days don't appreciate how long it used to take to make rank and like. Exactly well, like I said, I was, I made sergeant in nine years. It took me nine years. And the sergeant then is what is what most lieutenant is now, and a and a and a lieutenant was the field was a division commander. Of course, now it's captains. Or then a major up above it. And all of it started about that time. Because I was so Terry Gaddy won the election, and he still didn't come back to work immediately, and there was there was an interim sheriff because the sheriff at the time had retired, an interim sheriff had taken over. That interim shriff actually wanted me to lieutenant Overfield Division before Gaddy ever took office, but it was with the blessing of Terry, and so when Terry took office, I became a captain in division command of field. So what was that? So when did you make team leader for the SWAT team? I was still a sergeant then probably our swat team was was started in nineteen eighty nine and I was one of the original members. So that's that's really really early on it was y'all got trained by lapd right is that correct? Or No? No, we actually Lynchburgh. We went to our basic SWAT school. A few of us went to the Lynchburg was hosting it back then, and then we went to Alabama, Aniston, Alabama and got some training. But that was that was in the into the nineties. We went to Alabama and got that training. Y'all were probably one of the first sheriff's offices that had a tag team. Ye team, ye did y'all call? Y'all called it. Sam special team. It was a special response team. So you get that. So you're in charge of that before? Yes? Was Yeah, so Terry uh again again he was first sergeant at the time, I think he was. They made him the team leader and and then I was assistant team leader. And he never took a real active role in training and whatnot. And then he shortly thereafter he became uh, even before he had become sheriff, of course, he was division he was the uh, the team uh, the commander, a team commander, and you rotated into the role. And I was a team leader and I pretty much ran that team even as a team leader. So so go into like I think one of the things that we talk a lot about athletes and things like that, especially on the show, is what do you think it means when you it says it you you worked a failure and then you train past it. What does that mean? So my mantra has always been and I don't know where I come up with the term, but it was probably just in casual conversation with somebody, but it's focused discipline, okay, And that what the term focused discipline means is be focused enough to know what needs to be done and disciplined enough to do it regardless of the circumstances. So how would you apply that in training? And how would you apply that in like actual operations. So anytime, so anytime you're training, you're learning something new, you have to teach the fundamentals first, the basic how to, and you just hammer the fundamentals. Once you're you and your guys are getting the grasp of or your students or getting the grasp of the fundamentals, start to put them under pressure because and at some point push them until push them to the point of beyond failure, to where you're so tired, you're so it hurts, you're so war out, you're so exhausted that you can't think anymore. And now you're running on pure instinct all of a sudden, what you have been trained to do. It's just what you do. You don't have to think about it. In in a in a stressful situation, your reaction to that can't be a decision as much as it is an instinct. It's just a reaction. And that reaction has to be based off of your training. And that's why the training has to be on the point, and it has to be exact. It has to be this is the way we do this, and then you push them until they can't think they want to quit. In sports, I had high school coach that was brutal. I mean, if he got mad at us. It's one of his favorite sayings was, you know, g did we will run till I get tired. And we just started running. And he would never get tired. Of course it wouldn't, and so we would just run. And I'll never forget one day and I remember the boy's name, but I'm not gonna say it. He just dropped. It was it was like two days I'm a practice. He dropped right there, and I thought to myself, I mean, I won't say it out loud, but uh, and you know, I was one of the team captains. I think we're done for today, Yeah, I said, well yeah, I said, well good. I said, well, I've ready got to teach him. You know, he's been killed one of them. Now, I reckon, we get to go inside. Now. He said, everybody move over to the left, keep running, And it was just those those wood spread back down and back down and back down the back and this kid was there and all of a sudden, the rescue. Squad had to come, and y'all are still running, still running. I thought, I forgot how many of us has got to die before this practice is gonna be over. That's that. I was at UV a summer practice, and uh, in high school, we only got water once a day. That you got water right in the middle. You got for fifteen minutes. You take as much water as you can. That's the only water you You could not take your helmet off and without permission, and you could. Not say high school. I get to EVA and you got people coming up and offering you water. And everybody's drinking water. I'm sitting nobody. I ain't took my helmet off. They're sitting on their helmets, college players sitting on their helmets, middle of practice. And I'm sitting there with standing up, helmet on. And I was a little more country than most of the teammates. They and they one of them said, hey, Country, Uh, you better drink some water. I said, I said, be damn, I'm drinking no water. There's permission. I said, y'all gonna get I said, we're gonna run till we died. And I said, where the kind of backwoods programs you come from. I told him. I said, man, I ain't drinking no water. To that, man says, I ain't drinking water. Okay, you thought it was a truth, But but. I learned today. The the position coach came over. He said, let me tell you something. I said, Man, I said, these practices, I said, other than having to hit them too over there every play. I said, these practice ain't that hard. And he says, and I remember this to this day, and that kind of stuck with me. Two things stuck for me. One at Uva, he says, it's not my job to get you in shape. If you want to be part of this team. You show up in shape. Okay, you get yourself in shape, and I hone you out. We are going to tell I'm going to teach you how to be a team, but you're. Going to be as an individual. You're going to be. In high school, it was kind of opposite. He we would show up out of shape and he would get us in shape. But I learned two things. One in high school, I learned how to be pushed. When you thought you were going to die, you've got two three more gias. You're not going to die if you fall out and the rest of you didn't die. He's I guess he's probably still living to this day. And uh, but there was no there was no sympathy. You move over and you can't keep going. So therefore that's kind of what I tried to do. So it was rare because, like I said, all of my teams, my tag teams, I would you show up and you get yourself in shape. There you had to prove to me once a year that you were still in shape. R We had a physical stand. Any gold has to be measured, right, and so you had to have a standard to be measured by it. And it wasn't that difficult. I mean, it's based on what the average forty year old adult male can do. And we were mostly back in those days, in our twenties and thirties. Now, my best team ever we were still going. All of us were in our forties and some of us in their late forties, and we were still competing in SWAT competitions. But but do you think the reason y'all are competitive is because you knew each other so well that you could like, what was what was the secret sauce that made that team better? If the athlete they weren't as athletic. They may have been may or may not have been more proficient with firearms, but what made them better? Like and you've stayed competitive with teams that were probably full time teams. I think that one thing is that most of them stuck around long enough to be good at what they did. There wasn't the turnover then that there is now. I think the the quality of candidate of candidates was the pool better. The pool was choose from was much better. And I don't know, I just think it was maybe it's a cultural thing or a or a generational thing to where that generation, which is not that you know, we're only talking twenty thirty years ago, was just you had a little bit more pride in self and they just wanted to be part of something that was good. And say, I think a lot of it is just people think that I just show up. I know, especially in Canaine, like people wanted to have Canaine on the side of the car and all this other stuff. They weren't really willing to put in the work that was necessary to accomplish what needed to be accomplished. I had a guy that I couldn't get him to training, and I called him aside on my dad. I said, he, I said, you need to come to training. You're only allowed to miss two a year. I said, you've already missed three. I said, uh, what's what's going on? He said, look, let's he said, let's be honest. He said, this looks good on a resume. I said, you have got to be joking. Are you serious? This is why you're on this team. And he was a good athlete, he was a gym rat. He's a good athlete. Uh. And I can make him, Uh, most people. I can make a good shooter out of it. And and if you'll listen to tactics is not rocket science. Yeah, it's being decisive and learn how to read write. It's I do this if you take that job. I got this job. Fine work. So what we've always said, fine work. He could do that, but he wouldn't show up. And I said, you seriously, this is what you want And he said, I just want this on my resume. And I said, good, put it on your estimately because you no longer with on my team. And he was gone. Right there, There was no question the sheriff didn't. It wasn't up for debate. That was my decision, you're gone and he was gone. Well I think that. So what made that team with the older guys better? Do you think longevity? They stuck together. I mean there was no we were on that team and all of us stuck together. Like I said, we were still in our late I was forty nine at our last forty forty nine, our last SWAT competition, and I was command team commander, had been team commander for I was team command, I was commander for officially for twelve years and that was the end of it. I retired at fifty. So this was at the end, and you know, we were still competing, and you know, several of the other guys were a year or two younger than me, and some of them in the early forties. The youngest guy on our team at the time was twenty nine, and he was ten years younger than the next guy. I mean, we were all older guys and they just stuck a round on because we it was we hit pride in being part of something that we knew was. Good, and you pushed each other. I mean as individuals you were good, but as a team, it just I think that it's a culture. It really is. It's a culture of like, hey, we're not just here to show up, We're here to like accomplish a mission. And it's just being hyper focused on that. I think from a from a training from a trainer's UH aspect, I compare a lot of things to sports and the keeping people together long enough to be good, building a culture, not tolerating certain things. I want. Suspended my best friend for something that I nor the team approved of. H work related right, and you know he should come to me and he said, we're best you, we're friends, we're hunting buddies. And I said, you don't undert this. We are Now. You know this is not a me and you thing, This is us. This is the group. The team's not happy with your performance. And this was a What he had done was a field operations, was a work you dated your daily job. And that's one thing that I demanded from from my teams was not only do I expect it to you to be exceptional on this team, but you are to be the top ten percent of this agency. Everyone at this agency will look up to you. We our cases will be followed up on, All of your work will be done. You will not abuse leave time you were a stellar All of them were stellar deputies and they took great pride in it. So what does it look like for you to be in a department that long? And this is kind of a side thing, but like what does it mean to you to look at some of those younger guys that you trained up who are now in the leadership positions? Do you feel like the culture is still there or what do you how do you when you look at it? Do you look at it as like, hey, I put a lot of time and effort in these guys. They're doing the best they can with what they have, but like I know the core of who they are as individuals. A lot of the guys that I train, and part of being a good leader is setting up your who succeeds you and you should be grooming a few place and I and I did, And that's I had a lot to do with why I retired. Well, I always said, when I got hired to twenty one years old and sheriff told me that you can retire at fifty, I knew then I was going to walk with it do at fifty years old, But I knew that a lot of people didn't. But the reason I walked out at FIT. I mean the very first day I could walk out is because I had prepared at least two guys and they wanted that job. They were ready for that job, and it was no point in me lingering and around. And be quite honest, I was I was burnt. I mean I I was twenty nine years in and I gave this career everything I had. I mean, it was. It. I was burnt and I was ready to go, and but I didn't. I wan't going to just linger around collecting big paychecks when I could. Yeah. And so but those guys have now most of those of her tire. So a lot of the people that I that I uh, that I led, have also gone on to retire. So what you're seeing now some of the people that that may have been influenced by those that I influenced or had, they may have some influence over over me, because a lot of them still come to me to this day and tell stories that they've heard. But so the culture has changed, It's quite a bit. And I don't know whether it's where it started, whether it's just a society thing, a generational thing, but the culture has changed dramatically. So how so we'll circle back to that. But I think one of the things that I really wanted to hear about is to kind of break it up a little bit. For says, uh, tell us your uh so we talk about people and things like that. Tell us your favorite SWAT story. Your team commander for twelve years, what's your favorite story? I don't know that now I have a favorite. I mean some of some of our stories. Give me the most entertaining one, I'll tell you, yeah, this one, so the story, I'll tell you that, Uh, it's got entertainment value, but it also has you know, high drama, and it was one of our more hair raising I guess. Uh. The uh the deputies called me. It was in the middle of the night. The road deputies called me at home and said, hey, we got a hostage barricade in a trailer parks. I said, I. That's a lot going on in one place. Right, So I called the investigator on call was also the lead or one of the negotiation and he is he was former SRT so he and he's a you know, he's my kind of guy. Right, He's not like your typical negotiator, you know, you're like he's en route y'all are working in tanem instead of like, hey, we're going to negotiate with this, and your negotiations are like, hey, we're working towards a common good here. We're not in competition, right, so. We And a lot of times what I would do is as a commander, I would call my the team leader and we would go. We would get there first, and we would just uh, we tried to manage overtime. If this wasn't an SRT operation, then I just we would he and I would just help the field resolve it. But the thing we do while the team, if it was a team thing, probable they were getting there, we would do the scouting. So I get there, negotiated, gets there, and he starts talking the guys. The only thing he's on with is a knife and hostage is his ex girlfriend. And he would come to the window on the the trailer had it was a little triangle when he would come to the wind and stick his head up at the window, and the negotiator was right on the other side of the door talking. To him and had positive contact. Oh yeah, and we had the field division, they had all the perimeters and they were with him. So if he all of a sudden opened the door and charged. Not only do I know that the negotiator is probably more capable than the field guy, but you so I started to do my scouting. Well, I found that the back door to the trailer was open, was unlocked, So I just kind of held what I had and I eased back around, and so that guy never knew I was there. So you're like, I'm doing well. Yeah, so this is so I'm gonna be the you know, the jacket about the surprise all of a sudden, So uh, in a hostage. She was sitting on a couch, so she wasn't even close to him. So we're not talking about like a gun to the head, night to the head, not at the moment. So she's just bored with us. So the negotiators telling me, he's keeping me, keeping me U informed of where the hostage is in relation to the hostage taker and negotiators. He's talking to me, he's getting nowhere. He's absolute getting nowhere. Where the team shows up and brief them. Guys, we're gonna we're gonna move in that back door like a cat. Okay, we're gonna sneaky in. I said, We're gonna be quiet. Uh. I had one guy that was point. He was lethal. If this thing turns lethal. You got hi, you're gonna zip him up. I'm the second one, and I've got a distraction device. I'm gonna well, you're not supposed to call him. Then it was loud. Technically it's a distraction device, but the common name is flashbang. Oh it's it's it's a lot of light, a lot of sound. Okay. So the plan was I was gonna pitch it between him and her closer to him at him. Right, but separate, give you a little separation. So he wouldn't lunch for her. He's going away from her, right, he's gonna little away from the bab moving away from each other. The third guy took her and got her out of the way and shield her. The rest everybody else would pick up his slack wherever. Fine work, Fine work. So everybody had had a role. Well, as soon as we we come into back and we moved to the to the living room, she he had now somehow another she was beside him. Oh boy, so now he's he's holding a knife. She's decide he doesn't have it up to her. Third none, I said ship. We're here now, I mean, we work. We got to do it. So I threw the uh this the distraction device, and I you know, and I just kind of pushed it and uh, I wanted you to get it between them, and I knew that she was a little close to it. Uh And of course I missed her. And but it I guess I pushed a little too fast, and that thing was like a baseball and it went right into a curio case, a glass case. Okay, I didn't know where it went, to be honest with you, but it landed on his second shelf of that curio case. Okay. And when it went off, it was just well, it stunned him. He dropped the knife. The guy that the lethal guy just bold hit him. I was right behind him. We hit him so hard. We went through a door and into the bedroom, onto the bed and he's in cuffs. The other guy had shielded her, you know, he had her. It was the greatest thing in the world. I mean, it was just he wrote stuff stories are made us. Yeah. Man was proud. Yeah, that was a good plan. It was hostage rescue. Man. I mean, he's where's he expecting you to come from? She turned around, looked, and she says, that was my unicorn collection, and the unicorns the curio case was full of collectible unicorns. So she wouldn't have to be alive. Corn stuck in it for you. I mean, well, I thought it was going to You know, she's in shock. You know, she's just mad because we didn't blow up her unicorns. You know, it didn't end there. She told victim witness advocate about the unicorn case that we had blowed up the unicorn case and so here, you know, it isn't like the movies kids. Yeah, the hero doesn't get the girl. No, you get a complaint called in on you for blowing up a collection. Of collection of ORNs. I'm still alive, but I'm unhappy because you kill. Me right right? So that any other good swat stories, Oh, I mean it's countless. I mean it's you know, I don't know how many we did over the years. Some of them there weren't so happy endings. Most were. So let's talk about that just for a second. I know we haven't gone into this a lot, but like how I think one of the things you said earlier, law enforcement is really easy, but it's not when you have a situation where you have a tag call out and it doesn't go It doesn't go well, right, how do you deal with that? If it doesn't go well, So you. Could have the best plan but things don't line up, how do you deal with that? I never really had one that just was a catastrophe. You know, some of them didn't go quite as planned, But then again, I've also believed I have never choreographed an operation. It has to be fluent. You have to know x's and o's and again fine work and know what to do. Everyone knows how to do everyone else else's job, because just because you start out in this position doesn't mean you're going to end up in that position. So it never I want to say most all of them went exactly according to plan. Sometimes due to decisions made by the suspect, they changed and it was not a happy outcome for them for them, but you try every one of them. None of them were perfect, right. No day is perfect from the mistakes that you make, and. I think that's the key. I think the key is is I think sometimes when we survive an encounter, whether it be a tack call or something else, we have this false sense of like I really did good. I think the ones the best at what they do are the ones that are like man that could have gone a lot of different ways than it did. How do we train and prepare for that one of the things I'd like you to talk about. I know it's not a pleasant experience, but like you were probably one of the first officers in this area that was involved in an officer involves shooting. I mean we've had a lot since then. What was that like and how did it change the way you're the trajectory of your career. Well, I was. I've been a fire destructed for a few years and the only the only training that I've ever really been to was at the local academy, and the instructors were taught how to teach. At that academy, they really were wasn't taught cutting. Edge technology and just tactics. But keep in mind that I am I'm competitive by nature. Being from a sports background and a gym rat, I was competitive, so I will and keep in mind I shot a seventy three in the academy. So, but you toward the gun to get it back. Yeah, so I was pretty artistic for that. But did you get style points for that no, no style. Point, I got to butt you into that. But being competitive, it was me and another guy that we just kept pushing each other. Now I learned following. I was pretty much self taught, and we learned it ass backwards. I became fast before I became accurate. Our theory us to idiots was that a fast ninety eight will beat a slow one hundred every. Day, absolutely absolutely. Well, so I was really really fast, and I was still better than most. I mean, I'm shooting ninety eight ninety nine so on a consistent basis, and I'm doing it fast. And but you're every time you go to the range, you're trying to get faster. That's the thing I was. I felt like, I'm accurate enough. Let's sen I'm killing deer with pistols, I'm killing squirrels with pistols. I'm pretty accurate. So I'm feeling pretty good about this. Okay, Well, on this night, several things came to light. Number one, I'm going to try not to get into so much detail. You know this hotel, who will over hear and see all this, and I don't want to get into a lot. But anyway, suspected taking a hostage and he had already literally butchered her. She was not technically deceased yet. First officer gets on scene, confronts h and I guess the way that a lot of officers were trained, I guess we've trained probably trained then is try to through diplomacy. There's a time for diplomas, then there's a time for action. And he just used way too much diplomacy. And the next thing, you know, he becomes a victim and he gets attacked, and uh, but he's faster than the suspects, so. That faster from a standpoint of running. Running, he runs and and I put on them and I see this. I'm still in the car, so. You pull up. The call comes out as that she was getting beat. Or yeah, she was the all come there to she was that she was first call coming out that he was beating her in the parking lot, and then the second call says, no, he's got a knife. He's he's stabbing her. And so I'm running as fast as a call will run. I'm coming through the parking lot of this of the of an apartment complex, and uh, I see him chasing the deputy, and and you know, my first instinct was just to hit him with the car. He was They were running circles around another park car and I was just gonna hit him with the car because I mean he was all He had almost caught that deputy. And when he saw me coming, he stopped and turn and he actually rolled over the car to keep me from hitting him. So I slid to a stop and I rolled her to the car. Well. He went back to the He went back to the to the victim, and he tried to pick her up to use her as a human shield, and he put the knife to her throat and I come out of the car, planting my feet found my front site. This was a t zone shot. I mean it was. She was a good She was. Way below him. I had a perfect hitshot and he wasn't moving. This is what we were trained for. This is how we stand here, we shoot there started to take pressure out the trigg and I realized there is a picture where the apartment was right behind him, and it was there was three people looking at the window. I the wherewithal to recognize that this shot does not go as planned, or even if it exits that it's going to go through that window has the potential go through that window. So I start to take a step to the left to change the angle. So now I'm moving. I've never trained like this before. I'm so I take a step. Well, when he sees that, he charges and he drops her and comes at me full speed. He's moving. We've never trained like that. I fired five rounds and there was no body cameras back then. The car cameras know nothing, but there was one of the witnesses was on phone, so there was dispatcher was on the phone. They could hear my verbal commands, they could hear the shots. The shots were fighter or the five shots fighting in about one point five seconds. We had never trained at that rate of fire. So and also the takeaway from it was it was like it was like a bad dream. Those bullets should have been working and the only one that worked was the last one. They all but all but one it so one was was a clean miss. The others were all center mass. But the one that worked was the one that was the one that hit a switch. And in training we talk about timers and switches. There are some injuries that you will succumb to your injuries immediate, but the clock is ticking. That's a timer. Those then there are switches, and those switches are it's an immediate reaction, that's and so I hit a switch. It was over, so I had time to think. You know, after that. This was nothing like I'd ever trained for before. And I'm a firearms instructor at this point, but I was a young early firearms instructor at that point. I just started going there by myself and I started to develop. Thanks for number one, accuracy does matter. Yeah, because if you hadn't been accurate, you'd have been a victim too. But also, I'm moving, he's moving, so you can't count on exact bullet placement. So therefore, rate of fire is extremely important. And to get accurate rate of fire you have to have recoil control management recoil. You can't control recoil, you can only manage it. So you have to have management of recoil at a high rate of fire with a greater degree of accuracy. Right, So we'd always been taught that that side alignment and trigger control was everything. I started thinking, well, it's hard to get that rate of fire with all of this perfect trigger. All I remember is to get that rate of fire, I slap a trigger. Yeah, just slap it really quick. And other than that that T zone shot that I first had, I never saw a front sight. So side alignment is out the window. And any lethal encounter and in most cases, when it happens that fast one point five seconds a charge at that closer range one point five seconds, your sight alignment and trigger control are non existent, almost non existent, I mean virtually non existent. So what mattered it was management of equal So I started training that. Now this was in the in the nineties. Well, all of a sudden, you know, twenty years later, everybody. I started going to some schools and I started to hear some of the same things I've been teaching for ten fifteen years. And now, I don't take me wrong. I learned the terminology you use. I learned the burbage that these these world known instructors are using. But I would send other people to schools. They'd come back to You know, Gavin, you were right, you know they're teaching this, But when I taught it, it was, you know, eye rolls like this is just Smidt being smitt You know this right, No one would believe it until there's an old saying you're you know what makes an expert. Carry a briefcase into another state. That makes you an expert. If no one there knows you, then you, oh my god, he must know. He's really smart. But the local guy could be saying the same thing and nobody's going to really buy into it because they've known you for ever and hurt all your dumb ideas too. But uh no, so so uh and I beat my head against the wall. At the academy, I had become one of the lead instructors, but all of the instructors were still teaching stand here, shoot there. They taught you how to qualify. They really didn't teach you how to gunfight. And that's what this is. When it when when it, when it gets lethal, it's a gunfight, And so how can I teach this? And the fundamentals had to change? So I was one of the first around here. I don't know that said that the most important thing was grip. To manage call, you have to have a great grip. The stance is important, but not that important because you may you may be moving, So the stance is not the platform is not that uh, it was the grip. If you hold a gun exactly the same way every time, then you're going to get a degree of consistency. Everything's going in the same direction. But I had to It was like, uh, it was like pulling teeth. The older instructors just did not want to do it. In the meantime, there we're still every year we're making new instructors based on old, old shit. Uh so finding on some of the older ones retire and they were really really good at fundamentals. But now you know again the fundamentals you that's your building blocks. But now we got to take it get so I was finally able right before I just retired, retired for the last time, was able to, uh, with the help of a handful of the other range masters, we came up with a way to teach you how to shoot before we got into qualifying, right so, and it was a lot of it was based on the very first thing we learned is management of recoil in the grip, how to hold the gun, a certain way to get that. But that I started that back in the nineties and with my own people. And and since you've retired, you've done a lot as far as training people. On concealed carry correct Yeah, And what do you think is the difference between training civilians and training law enforcement. Well, first of all, you don't have the You've only got a couple hours or of I've talked two different Concealed care can either be a classroom or by Virginia codes. It does not require live fire, and a lot of your places don't require a lot of school. A lot of you concealed carry classes don't require I've done it both ways. As a business. You make way more money just classroom only. The last time I was taught those, I was starting to take them out to the range now, so the classroom is about a four hour classroom the range time, and I could only take about four people out attacker. It was only one of me, so I would shoot one in time for safety reasons and whatnot. But that's all you had, so you had to really it was basically just teaching a civilian what a gun feels like to shoot it. But I would teach them basically the same thing a shooting as a student, and it's just an abbreviated version. But that's but a long before. The thing you got to teach a cop is not only how, but why why are you doing? Why is this important to you? So you know, and forgive me if my stories are a little bit crass, but you got to tell some war stories to understand that this can happen, It does happen, it will happen, and this is why it's important that you need to be good at this. The overwhelming majority of cops will will never use their gun. This whole thing that they'll never draw it out that the guns are get drawn a lot of times, you know, but very few ever actually pulls the trigger, and that becomes hammered into their head. Well, you know, nobody else got he's been a cop here for thirty years. He's not I've had to shoot nobody, so I probably won't either, So they don't take it real serious. Uh So, the hardest part of an instructor is teaching them why this is important. And I've had one of the most satisfying things is I've got I've got SWAT teams from all of the state that I've talked through the basics, White school that have called to me. They've been in some bad things that they've they've reached out to me and said, hey, you were right. We went through some ship last night and you were right. That feels good. You know, we all made it out of live. Thank you. That feels good. I've had individual officers that have been involved in shootings early on. I would reach out and I would talk to them, and I wanted to know if what you were teaching was working well. Not only that, but but tell me. I wanted to learn from from their experience. Did you see your sights? Did you uh? What was your rate of fire? What was the distance to the target, how many hits versus missus? And so I would learn what was was my case unique? And it wasn't. My case was not that unique. Most of the time, what I'm getting is the same thing, same feedback, and nothing. Nothing's a hundred percent. There was some some variations here and there. But the other thing is I started to get people that was involved in shootings reach out to me and say, hey, you were right. Right, this is what this is what I what you. Said, what happened happened? Uh, this is what it feels like. So what does it feel like after going through all that? What does it feel like? How does that feel to think I not only survived a violent incident, but I've taken that experience and given it to At this point, I would say, thousands of people. Again, it's it was. It was a tragical incident, and uh uh and I am in no way uh glad that it happened. I would say that there was a The takeaway from it is I learned a lot and it made. But you passed that wisdom on to other officers. That's that's that's the if it's anything good to come of this horrific incident, was that I took the experience and I think a lot of people take it and they and everybody deals with with trauma differently. Some bottled up and never speak of it. And but me, I learned from it, and I said, how can I make not only myself better, but I can make others better a case this happens to them. So, uh, you know, people I don't know, you could probably tell that my whole demeanor had just changed your line of questions about football and and and all that I was one person and then all of a sudden, I get very very serious when you and it's it's not the shooting that gets me there. It's the passion that I have for surviving a shooting. But I think I think there have been I would say most of the incidences of officer involved shootings for people to graduate from the academy in Lynchburg were students of yours, And that says something I don't I don't ever want to think like, hey, we as a group of people have survived it because of one person. But I certainly think that you've had a huge impact on a lot of people that have survived violent incidents and went home to their families. So if nobody else tells you, I appreciate what you've. Done, well, I appreciate that. I think we all as humans, we learned from a lot of different things. So I was a small part in people's learning. You know, I didn't get your nickname from being a small part. I mean, you got nice hair, but that's not that's not it. In conclusion, one of the things I would like you to do is I would like you to tell, like, what what is life like after law enforcement? You know, I gave it up. I was working with a local agency not too long ago, and I was I could tell that that, And I was teaching the academy, and I could tell the students coming through were not The discipline is gone. And in all fairness, I had started to lose my temper at the academy over things that you know, I really it didn't matter, you know, So I was starting to I never lost the passion for teaching for filens, as you can see, that's still there, but dealing with people who didn't care, who started to weigh on me. I was hunting one morning. I decided, I've done and I'm gonna go. I'm gonna hunt, Okay, So I hunted. I had to get just had hip replacement. So I knew I had to get my hip replaced. And so after hunting season, I got my hip replace and I thought that was gonna put me down for a while. In two weeks, I was back. I was turkey counting in two weeks, so that didn't put me down. But now it was Turkey season. So then Turkey season was over, and I said, well, if I'm bored, okay, So now I started a long care company. What's it called. This started on a boat with my brother in law uh and uh uh his wife and his wife and my wife are sisters, and so it was just four of us and we he he does some long care on the side, and I was helping my nephew with his business, uh, Schmid's long Care. Uh that's his business, not mine. I want to know about yours. So uh he really he was supposed to be giving us some work, but he's he said, you know, I don't really have a lot of work for y'all right now. So me, this was probably probably you know, there were several beers in and my brother losses maybe we all start a home company, and I said, I laughed, and I said, well, we're gonna call the two Old Men long Care. And both our wives laugh perked up and said that's perfect. And he says, I'm serious, we should and I said, well, I said, I ain't getting into this big time. I said, you know, get a few yards and uh, so we've got and I'm gonna do things right if I'm gonna do it. So all got insurance, Well we got insurance, and so we yeah, two Old Men long Cares as our long care business. But also just I hadn't taught a casil care class. It's last October. I taught one. I taught my my niece and nephew right before I give it all up, uh in November. But because I always promised him, I do their class for them so they get their certificate. But I hadn't done the one for the public since probably last summer and I started, I never got rid of the business. I just won't do anything. So I'm doing that again. So so uh so, JKS Training and Consulting is back up and running. So I do conceal cary of classes with JKS. Did they get a picture with you when they finish it? They if they want one? I don't not many people, I ask, really, Yeah. I mean they just don't have taste. I've taken pictures of them with their holding their targets and you would be surprised at if I can have someone. Uh And I don't do a lot of the range training anymore with them, but back but when I the last time I did it, I was if I can have somebody that has no bad habits, a blank slate, and I teach them from start to finish within one hour, most are shooting better than a deputy or a police academy student is in three days. Yeah that's uh so. So yeah, I'm doing those two things, and when hunting season rolls around, I'm hunting. Okay, Well, I appreciate you coming on. It is always good to see and I do want you to know I appreciate what you've done, and I know there are a lot of people just like me that well, thank you, Thank you for having any time
