I'm real happy to have Ewvyer retired chair from AMers County. How many years of service did you end up with having it? Well over thirty, wasn't it right? It was almost forty within a month or so from being forty years. So you've been law enforcement for forty years, almost forty years and just a great person to work for. I'm really really happy to get into kind of how you got to where you started, how you started, and how you ended your career at the very top. So welcome and. Just let's talk a little bit about what it was like growing up, where you grew up, what you remember, and then how you got into your service. Well, I grew up in the city of Lynchburg. I went to school in Lynchburg. A lot of people thought I went to AMers because I was out there all the time for my dad had a business there. Okay, but I grew up in the city, worked in the city as a young child. NG they used to have what they call a private ambulance service. It wasn't run by the city fire departments, run by a man named Carol Ray Martin and Metropolitan Ambulance and that then that turned into Lynchburg. It ended up turned into the fire Department. No, it ended up turning into the fire department saving crew for a while. Correct. Well, they had a light saving crew, but they couldn't transport people. The only people could transport was the ambulance service. So you had two different people come to a car wreck. You'd have a restI squad for removing people from the rerecords and stuff like that, and then you'd have ambulance service come to transport you. So you've worked on the transport side. Yeah. I was first started at Washington Ambulances, just hanging out down there, and there was everybody worked. There was a retired policemen, and I had some with like my idols that I thought a lot of, like Bobby Nash and I thought a lot of him, and he worked there, George Toomlin and Ronnie Coleman, a lot of the old guys. Old school kind of ran the city of lynch Really, yes, So how does that transition? So you went to work where at the Sheriff's office in Lynchburg. I went there in eighty five. The Roy Wainwright who gave me my job was the captain of a Lynchburg Shiff's department. He talked to sheriff and to give me a job, and I started as a jailer in nineteen eighty five. Okay, and talk about talk a little bit about your career in Lynchburg. Well, I worked in the jail for about four or five years and the sheriff there was a man I thought of him like a father. He was one of the best men I've met my life, Lawrence Simpson, and he wanted to get into law enforcement, which we was in a law enforcement agency. We worked at courts, serf summons is and basically that's what we did in jail, in the jail, so it wasn't a full service. It was not a sheriff office shriff's apartment, No, it wasn't. But he wanted to get into a little stuff with the law enforcement side, so he started. He wanted to start a canine program, and uh, we had another that tried to get it going but wasn't very successful. He had some bad luck. And then the sheriff gave me the opportunity to do it, and I was pretty glad it went through real well, I remember your dog, big old grif right, that was one of them. That was the last one I had in the city. It was the best dog I probably ever had one. Any good grif stories, I know you told me one about that took you into Amerson County where you actually didn't you find a weapon or something. Or I mean there's lots of things. I remember, you know, the dog handling, you know everything, and the dog don't know nothing. You know you But I know I went to an arm robbery one night where cab driver was shot and the other well he was stay up and he shot the assailant. And the guy bailed out and ran. And when I got there, the dog got at the police car and he was very aggressive towards siren. He here sor he knew he was going to work. He really wanted to go to work. And he was a great tracking dog and a drug dog. And we started track and I remember he was going down the street and and all the media was there. You know, it was a lot of cameras and everything. And the first thing you're supposed to do when you get to a scene somewhere is give your dog a break, because if you don't, you go embarrassed, right, And I got him. I got embursed. He didn't take a break, but he started to go to the woods to take a break, and I under my breath went rain, you know, which was no. And the dog he just went back and he basically like laid back, like I'm sorry. Dad wasn't do wrong, you know, And he didn't track worth a dime. It was awful. It was really awful. And I remember commanded. Dave's scalf was there on the scene and he said, he I don't know which way the guy went. Nobody did you know, But he said, I just don't think he went this week. I said, I don't know, he's he's not doing very well. He said, go back and do it again, and try it again. So I went back to the same area where the guy got out of the cab, and this time I didn't say anything, and the dog took off and down the street and went to the same area and broke to the left and went down there. I don't know, it was a hundred yards or so down there, this tall brush. There's a guy laying there. The dog took me into it. It was I did several I had several times. So you learned a lot. I learned a lot to trust your dog. Yet, yeah, I think it's the biggest thing as a canine handler is there are a lot of people that won't take their dogs out of the car because they don't want them to fail. Yes, but like you were willing to put them in that position to fare. I had learned the hard way. I learned a lot of stuff from him. I mean I told people when I talked to the academy sometimes I used to tell them my stories and people couldn't believe you telling yourself. But how do you make a good police officer? Learned from somebody else's mistakes and they I'll tell the truth and stuff. I remember on a drug search one night we had found the dog had found drugs and a lot of places all over this house. And there was a little room probably wasn't fifteen by fifteen. I remember it was a or a clown of the share sitting there. It was a stand up vacuum cleaner, a TV for them, all the old TVs, and I remember it was one of the little RC occupant little toys trucks, you know, a little truck, ARCI truck. And the dog went in and I was just they said, well you just run all their rooms e W for me And I don't we don't found all the dope. I didn't need too much. That's going to look it out. He runs in, he grabs a vacuum clean and starts throwing around. I said, leave it alone. I walked out the room, and the investigator was Bill Dance back then, okay, and he was vice, I'll never forget it. And he comes in and looks and pulls the bagg or the vacaton and shows it to me. I thought, got me again. It's it's a humbling experience of working dog. It really is. Oh, I was most rewarding thing I ever did. If I wouldn't have got old, I would have I would have stayed there. I had no idea I was gonna be surefed and didn't have any unmas, any admonistors to be the sheriff I didn't want. So you work in Lynchburg. Let's run through that a little bit. So your career, you you probably when did you go Did you go through the law enforcement. Academy with the Sheriff's office? Yes, I did. I was before after you got your dog. Oh I did that way before. Oh no, I did it after that. All okay, so you get a dog, you've gone through the back. Then you had to go through the academy. Yes, for law enforcement, yes, two thousand and then you get out on the street. Yes, talk a little bit like I don't think people appreciate, like with all the technology and everything else that we have, like the work that people like you, Ronnie Coleman, all the people that were on the tack team and everything else did with very little technology. It was a lot of like knowledge of the city, knowledge of tactics and things like that. I don't think people realize that, actually, didn't they shoot somebody at Heritage High School? Yes, this sniper. Yes, And I don't think we've got he had a gun to another police officer's head. Yeah, and they had to kill him. And it was I wasn't on a tack team then. I wasn't there that night with it. But I mean that's the kind of stuff that these guys dealt with. They didn't talk about it, but yes, they they are the reason that I think things have gotten so much better. I don't realize the training and goes into be a policeman and then especially on the special ops and all the other things, k nines and all the investigations, all that stuff and there's so much training there and this mandated stuff, and it's just you have people in school more when you do on the street. Yet to be honest with you, Yeah. And so talk a little bit about the time in Lynchburgh working with the Special Operations guys. What was that like. For Commanded Shockley UH and C. T. Carter was my hero. They're the ones that asked me to be UH, to come be a part of the tag team with them guys back then, and that was the only ones I've ever done it. And it was such an honor to be with those guys, it really was. And we would train and of course they would shoot a lot. They shot a lot, and of course they made me shoot with them, and I never was a shot. They were they were grave shots. They had a doll. That's what it said. The dog. That's that was the only reason I was then attack team because the dog. There's no question about it. But I remember we going in places and the dog we had, our guy was looking for for murder one night and the street units saw the guy and put a perimeter on the up at eleventh and Wise, and the tag team shot gas in the house and the UH call out and yeah, called out and everything. Plus they last banged it whatever, and they went in and they couldn't find the guy in the house. And of course they asking everybody, are you sure you kept a get out on the house and whatever, and uh he said yes, and I'll never forget it. CT always at the was the end of stack. I nefinely went in. I was at the back because the dog was gonna try to get everybody. Yeah, and so uh he asked me to bring the dog in. He said, we can't find him. And the guy they're wearing, he didn't come up this house. He's in the house somewhere. And I sent the dog again, and the dog cleared upstairs already, and then he goes down to the butt. These old houses back in the old days had coal bends where trucks were back of. But the coal truck went back up and shoot coal in it. And they had a furnace in the house. And when the dog went down the steps, uh I and there was a platform then turned and goes this way. And when the dog went down, I seen the dog. He'd go black it and I told him, I said, he's in the basement, and he said, how do you know I said, I can read my dog read him. I mean I could read him, you know. And it wasn't in the basement area but a few seconds, and I heard him just whining and barking. You ain't making a noise in bark And he said, what's the matter with him? I said, he can't get to him. And so of course they took you bunker guys. And it was in the basement, and uh, they found a gun to see it was forty four magnum laying up under steps, and uh, they wasn't down there. And when he he was in a coal bin, he was hired any coal bind way, he couldn't he couldn't. He couldn't. He couldn't get to him. Dog couldn't get to him. Yes, and uh so anyway, uh, they opened the coal bind up and he was yelling for the guy to come out, and he wouldn't come out, and of course we tried to they wanted. He kicked the door shut where the dog couldn't get to him, and then he goes at the back and the dog falls over in the cold bind down and it was deep down there, so he couldn't get out to go get him. And the guys on the outside caught him when he ran out the basement. You know, to get out of there. You had to still get your dog out, didn't you. Yeah, had to go get him out of that. Yeah. But they was just ecstatic that, you know that the dog turned out. Nobody got shot. Oh yeah, Oh, we had another one, you know, we had another one's brocade in the house, and we send him in and he first thing he went was a real nice place. The first thing he did went into the big room where Rugg was and Markey's place. Yeah, yeah, Grif was here, Yeah, and uh basically went in and got up in the bathroom, was balking and carrying on, and they found this guy hiding up in the tail closet, you know, up in the closet. It's just amazing. So where did you go? You didn't train around here for you dog? I went to Porstmouth and trained at Portsmouth Police Academy. I've been here probably six or seven different times, like the twelve weeks schools and the last one I the last school I went to was m vy Mole was a retired troop or who was very knowledgeable to probably the best, one of the best. Ben Bennett O. Ben bennett'st the best. I think he is the best god. But he trained the guy that trained me too, was a guy in Rick Humphrey's Okay. So, and I think what's really cool about that lineage is a lot of those guys went on to train the dogs that went to the seal teams. Yeah, they went to most everybody, Kevin Keeling, all those guys, Mo Joseph, they went to Blackwater and ultimately and one of the guys that used to be in K nine in Chesapeake, I think he ended up owning one of those companies. I don't know which. So they they're like they were on cutting edge on the warm terror and they oh, absolutely absolute. So yes, I think it's a really cool transition. It was so talk about you leave Lynchburgh, you decide, hey, I want to go out. I went through a divorced Yeah, I was going through a divorce. My kids went to school there. Yeah, man, you know, I fought for the custody of them, and you know I had the physical custoy of both of them, and so I wanted to be there at the schools. And at the time the sheriff had reached out Timmy ESM. We would have come right there and the medium and I met I met him one day and he offered me the job. And so ambers though you grew you know, you kind of grew up there. Everybody every I don't think there's anybody I've ever run into. And Amas kind of didn't know e w Byer. Well. I did know a lot of people there. I was really forced and I have a lot of friends there. Very fortunate. It's home to me. Even though I went to school in the city, I now a day of the girl from Glass. Everybody went after the Amors girl. Yeah, okay, all right. So as you transitioned, Uh, you kind of had your career there at Amherst. You ended up as an investigator, correct, yes, right before you for sheriff. Anything that stands out, I know actually you actually called me on a case. People don't think about the small crimes that lead into bigger crimes. But do you remember the one that you worked at a Walmart. That gost the old ten thousand dollars that stuff? Yeah, that was that was Uh, I just back then, I wasn't investigator. I was just came out handling, just taking a report and going in and uh to be on with you. You know, I received a call the guy one day. He told me, he said, hey, man, I seen this guy walk out with the TV set and put in his car. And then, you know, I watched him. He's looking around like is anybody watching me? And he says, he goes back in. He comes right back with a lawnmower in a box, and he puts a lawnmow on his car and he left. You know, I said, So I went into Walmart and talked to the Lost Prevention people after they go back and look and see if they't seen anything on the video, and of course he did, and so I ended up working that case. It was a poem shop then wrapped straight from Walmart, and I went up there and talked to them, and the guy had come in there and he bought some things and ended up I kept going back and forth to Walmart and another pone shop in Lynchburg, and it turns out that Walmart family all kind of footage where this guy was a heroin attic and he stoled over ten thousand dollars worth of stuff in the last month. I mean trolling motors or boats. I forgot how many laptop computers I mean he stole with everything is steal. But it's just the little things getting to the bigger thing. Yep. You just worked it all the way through. Yeah, I know. I talked to people. So talk a little bit about what it was like to run for sheriff in the county you grew up in and everybody knew you. Like, what what did you think the key to your campaign when you ran for sheriff? Because you you ran in a contested race. There was what how many people ran when you ran? It was three one time, I think it was three or either four. I know it was three. It was a highly contested case. A lot of people. Uh. But so you had to run a campaign and you had to you had to people. To really help. I had a girl, really a lady to help. Me, and she she was at the time, she was really good at that. She really devoted her time to help me get in it. She did a good job and then its last time with the girl was excellent. Yeah, and so talk a little bit. So you were sheriff for eight years, correct, yes, two terms? Two terms? So first day in office in twenty sixteen, correct, What was it like coming in there? After you win the election, and you come in there and you realize I'm in charge of all this. It's gout rich and I mean it's it didn't start that day. It started really the day after election. You know, you know you'd won, and you hit so many things that you wanted to do better. You know, you wanted to make this feel like you want to make the place better. And one of the biggest things I really wanted to do was get us a credit that I felt like that was a real important thing to the department and made everybody on the same page. And you wasn't like Bonnie and Andy. You know what I'm saying. You do things the right way. And so you were in the sheriff's apartment for how many years were you there before you? I came in two thousand, So you were. There for sixteen years at that point. Rrect how many years of that sixteen years had they tried to be accredited? I was told they tried the whole time to do that. And uh, and and you know, as I know how hard you worked to help me get that. Uh, it's a hard thing to do. You just don't you just don't. You don't call somebody up say youre gonna get a credit, then you're gonna be a credit. You got to show that you'd show all these proofs, and and I was been dowy and that I didn't know anything about that stuff. You know, I didn't know anything. I was just hiring people and and hoping they would do the right thing and do what was supposed to be done to get us a credit. And it turns out that after the first term, when I didn't get a credit, that we didn't even apply. Then we hadn't applied because when the people would come look at they says, you're not you know, we're close. And then so what was it? So what was it like that first term as far as you have all these things that you want to get done? How did I mean, what was that like as a sheriff to be like, hey, I want to get this done. What was the hardest part during that timeframe that you felt like, man, I wish that I had. This well, getting resources and getting people just that catered to to what you want your vision? Okay, really, so what was your vision those eight years? What were your I really I was getting up in age. I mean I k you, I was really I wasn't gonna work seventy years old. I wanted to get out. And you know, I've already worked past all my leos money. I never got any of that, but I'm good with that. But I really I wanted my integrity was something I promised the people I'd get the accreditation. I wanted that. And even you, I mean your dedications that you helped me, and you really was a big part of that. Yeah, all the it starts at the top, and you had to make that decision. And well, it was hard. You know a lot of times its real hard. It's manpower getting resources. You got to have people designated to do certain things, and uh, it pulls away from one thing to get the other thing done. It's hard. It really is hard. Well, I think too, you have people pulling the opposite direct. You had people that want me to get it, you really did. You had people to get it down. Yeah, little while absolutely they didn't want me to get it because it made them look bad. Yeah, it made them look me. And it wasn't about me. The accreditation is not about me, right, It's not about me. It was about the battlement of the apartment. Uh, it's it wasn't anything to make me look good. I don't. I don't need to look good. So in any cases that stand out to you your first four years, I know we did a lot of drugs stuff. We did a lot. We was we were probably topping the area for US drugs. I think a lot of people or social media one, especially running for sheriff. It wasn't any social media for that, you know what I'm saying. Everything and social media is a big, big thing that it can hurt you and it can help you, you know, but it's it's something we didn't have to worry about in my earlier part of my careers. We didn't have all that. You just put a press release, right, you know. We didn't have you know, somebody showing up at a scene at a ho aside and trying to film stuff right there and asked you questions they know you can't answer, well you shouldn't answer, right, So, like you were one of the more hands on sheriffs that I've ever worked for. What is it like to be. A sheriff in a small town, a smaller area, like people calling you all the time. Yeah, well, you know, I remember one Valentine's Day I was going to get a Valentine's card from my girlfriend, and my daughter called and said, Daddy, where are you at? And I went to Walmart, which is four minutes from my house. I was in there for two hours. I couldn't get out of that. My kids didn't want to go to stores with me, you know, because man, that's that's part of the job. People didn't realize that. Even my fiancee, you know, we was at a graduation one time, and it was one of her siblings were graduating, and it was important time for them, you know what I mean, It was really important time, but wasn't about me. It was about them. And someone walked up and wanted to ask me questions about something and went on in and kept on going, and she. Got kind of fretted on. These people realize you're off. You never off when you're the sheriff, You're never off right, You're never off, And and that was a hard thing for her to realize. You know, it caused a whole lot of stress between us. But because you didn't, don't I think what you had told me before is during those eight years, you really didn't take a vacation. No, I mean, we used to go to bike week every year just to get away. The last time I went was the Yeah I want well fifteen I went to sixteen. I went in October of sixteen. I never won again until did you go to this? Did you go when you retired? Yeah? I had been to Bike Week anymore, we've been, We've been trayed. She took me on a cruise. She took me on a cruise, my first guy boat. Huh yeah, and it took me and uh that was a big trip. And matter of fact, she's booked another one for me this year. We go on in February again. So you liked it. I enjoyed it. I really did it. I called COVID. I called COVID on the fourth day and didn't know I had it. You know, I just felt bad and it rained on us every time we had a excuragion, like she had planned a nice boat sailboat ride across the Caribbean and stuff, you know. Then San Juan whatever it was, the name of town was Saint Martin's Okay, but yeah, it was fun and I really enjoyed it. Okay, you don't get much time to relax. So uh, yeah, vacation is not something there you had. You had several catastrophic events. Just talk about what it's like to be a sheriff in a small town. You have all the pressures of people coming to you and talking to you and giving you information and everything else. Was like, what is it like when you get that phone call that says one of your officers has been shot? I had it, I know what was it like for you? Rough? Okay, eleven thirty. I think the first one was the matter. And he was shot in the head, and uh, I got there for the ambulances. He moved him. I was there that night. I got dressed and was there before they moved him and pulled up and of course, uh, he's bleed, bleeding profusely from a head, and of course I don't know if he's gonna make it, to be honest with him, and uh, I jumped in the patrol car. I talked to the other two deputies there was there was several of them. There was three deputies, two deputies there and a town officer over there, and everybody's kind of you know, and shot. Yeah, it's all messed up. And uh, I go to his house and uh get his wife up and they had a small child at the time. Just a baby, and she's very young too, And I drove her to the hospital, probably scared of the deaf. I know I did, it ain't probably too it. I was scared of the deaf and got out of there and and went in the room. And like I said, I didn't. I didn't I want her to have time with him. It wasn't about me being in with him. So I went out in the court. So I'm going back to the scene and see what's going. On there and learn later on. He got out that night. Which is a miracle, by the grace of God, he got out, you know that night. He was just a blessing. Yeah, yeah, oh he has He is a He's a great police officer, he really is. And his mental toughness got in through it. I mean he was on the radio leading his troops that night, just like if he wasn't even shot. It was just amazing that he could do that. But that was That was the first one, and of course we had some other ones too. But the one. The one thing that I think people don't realize is I think people talk about when a president has to sign an order to send people into harms away, but when you assume the role of the sheriff. You're doing that every day. Every day. Well, that's the same as it's attack any of them, not only the tacticle office, but tactical officer. You're putting your deputies that in high risk situations all the time. The day you put your uniform and get in that patrol card, you don't know if you're coming home that night. But what what is what I'd like you to talk about more than anything, is what is it like to be at the very top and have to have to look at the wife of somebody that's just been shot? As as the shriff. You don't know what to tell them, You really don't. You pray a lot, You pray a lot. But I mean, what what what goes through your mind? I feel like there'd be so many different things. I'll tell you what I feel like. They have. You have survivors guilt. You have all the guilt of you do you know? You see and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's not your They're saying it's not your fault, sheriff, but you feel like it is because you send them there. You have them a job to do, and they work for you, you know, but it is. It is gut wrenching. It's really gut wrenching. It's people don't realize the stress level that you have on you. They don't have any idea. You know, we talk about you cut grass. You cut your grass, and you say, we got other people apart you're the sheriff, the ass and all them are wonderful people, but the sheriff isn't want it. All one things go bad. They don't save the major's name. It's always the shriff. And uh. I used to cut my grass. I remember, I have a phone. Land on my zero turn right here, and land cut the ground. I had to look at it every so often because you couldn't hear it from the motor. Because if you got a swat call and you got situations, they got to make decisions and they got to call you and asked that. When you go to church, everything had to get up, walk out of church. You know, your hospital, doctors, whatever you're there, you still have to have that phone with you. I did away with my home phone as soon as I retired. I did away with it. I did, I did away with it. I didn't need it anymore. I just got a cell phone. My immediate family and close friends still have my number. They can't call me. But I don't keep up with the social media or other church for me. And when I left, it's done. I don't follow them. I don't wish them no harm. I still think a lot of other people that worked for me, although it wasn't many left, but I don't keep up with it. Their show. They can do it the way they want to do it. Yeah. So one of the cases that I would like you just to talk about, because I feel like there's been a lot of media attention about it. You got blamed for a lot of stuff that you had nothing to do with. You had employees that made mistakes, and you have to own those mistakes. But I remember having a conversation with you a couple of years before. You were tired and you're like, this case, I can't know what one you're talking about. Yeah, I can't. It haunted me. It haunted me. This was eleven ninety some year old lady is leaning in to be asleep, right, ain't bothering anybody? Yeah, and her daughter is sitting in another room reading a book. Good Christian type people, and I'm not using religion, but they were good people. Yes, And somebody goes up. To the wonder and shoots through the winder and kills the old lady, the ninety some of you old and then shoots the daughter for nothing, right of course, you know now you got a phone call for that. Oh yeah, I was there. I went to everyone, every single homicide. I was there east one of them. I think you were there for any major anything there, I was there. And of course, you know, we worked investigat us. We had a good team and they worked hard to We didn't have any clues, we didn't have nothing. We started that with nothing and. Is pretty incredible in and of itself. Yeah, I owe us to get it solved, right. And then what happened happened. And then, of course, you know, the common Attorney got blamed for a lot of stuff that he had nothing to do with. And that was more of a vendetta of them against me, and they going after him because he's my father in law. I missed father in law, you know. And that's all that was. And uh, but what does it feel like when you know the truth for all that? Well, I had I had people calling me news agencies, I had the guy does the podcast he wanted to talk about it, and we have ethics. I can't talk about it, and so does the common with attorney, right, And the reason you can't talk about it because you don't want to. First of all, I don't want to try move to to AMers County with all this stuff. They were running a campaign and talking all this stuff about the crime scene and everything. They didn't know anything about it because the stuff they were reporting was not true, right, And the people they were blaming, Yeah, it wasn't true. You see, it came out by the grace of God that convicted the boy with ambers. People convicted this boy. And I didn't watch you trial. I didn't go up there. I didn't stay with it, but I did set my mind. I wanted somebody on the case to go at it a different way, to try to fix what that person had messed up. So you would accomplish your mission of getting accredited. But this case haunted. Oh it's something I went to my grave. It would have killed me. It really worried me all the time. But what is it like to be in a room and you have to make that decision as a sheriff to say I am I am going to commit the resources. That's a huge risk as a sheriff. It's a huge risk to say I'm going to commit the resources to fix this. First you had to own your mistake, that your people. But I couldn't. I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell anything about it. Then I couldn't say anything about it, right, and so you know, it was haunting to I remember going to see the victim in the hospital. I drove over to see her, you know, and checked on it. And I really care, but I still do. They're wonderful people. They're wonderful. Of course they're mad. To me, they're mad and everybody there. But I couldn't, you know, I couldn't. How do you go to a scene and say you to pick a gun up? How do you do that? I mean, it's say a b and sees the police work. I mean, how do you do that? But it happened. I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't. I know you didn't do it. I know you didn't do it. But at the end of the day, but you know, by the grace of God, the truth came out, and the truth came out, and uh, the citizens of AMers seeing the evidence there and was able to convict this monster. He's a monster. I think the crazy thing about it, And obviously we're both are extremely biased towards the Koma's Attorney's office. But I think the thing that I look at is where else would you have a case where you have two sworn police officers who testify in a case and that are not believable and they still will. I just I know the Comma attorney did what he's supposed to do, and he was and that was all about me. They're going after him because of me. That's the only reason that that is. That's that's what I don't like. He's he's doing a great job. He is, he cares, he's a real good loving man, a kid, loves his family and does it what he's supposed to do well. He and Amber does too. Yeah, they shouldered a heavy burden by having people run a campaign first against you, saying that you didn't know what you're doing and all your people made all these mistakes. However, on the other other side, then they blame your relationship and other relationships for the reason the case got messed up and really really drove aways between you and the family and the Commost Attorney's office and the family and the reality is you owned your mistake. The Commost attorney did the best they could with. What they had to head. Yeah, and they dont even now after all the all the screw ups. You found an investigator that worked at when I when I hired Chris Persons, retired Hampton police officer. I tell you what that was. That was God sent to me. What it was. He very knowledgeable, He worked time in and him and Jordan both worked on that case a lot. And Jordan's Sundrick who was on the Greg Jones, and Clay the boss, so Clay, all of them, they worked tirelessly on that case to try to get this thing fixed right and uh and by the grace of all we were able to do that and get a conclusion where we can convict him. Yeah. And like I said, I think the thing that I look at is despite all the negative that your successor. Probably to say a lot of things. I wanted to say a lot of things a long time, and I've always been very vocal, but I had to bite my tongue and I had a lot of old sheriffs that I really admired a lot and still respect him a lot retired and Mike Grahant was one to mean, you you got to take take the heat, boss, and just take it and it'll come at any end and the truth will prevail. And so what's the So what after everything said and done, what do you think the truth is? Like? What do you want to put out there of like what happened at that scene and ultimately what happened on to his conviction. What happened at the scene was somebody picked the weapon, not at the scene, but at the at the search one. Somebody picked that gun up that day, and of course we all were ecstatic that they found. That's what we were looking for, was the gun. We was at two different places. I was at the other house with the state police and we picked the gun up. And the person that picked the gun up says he didn't pick the gun up. And I mean that, I mean, how can I change that? You can't. I can't, You can't, I can't. But I had to sat there and Edith for several years that you know, I got to blame for what and stuff like that, which I'm not I'm not about who gets to blame. I'm not a worried about that and I'm done with it. That's just yeah. But my question to you is this is I feel like, I remember, we won't mention the news agency, but you told me you didn't care. For him, and I didn't understand that a bunch I've ever seen. I tell you right now, when I watch the news, I watched anybody but them. Yes, I watched Channel seven. I watched Channel seven. It's all I say. Channel seven is a great Channel ten that great news. Yeah. I mean, I've never seen anything like it. I just so, what was the hardest about that? When you look at like you, I think a lot of people are like, hey, the media doesn't do this. The media doesn't do this, But you actually experienced it. What what does it feel like for me? It puts out what they want to put out about people, and and to me, you ought to have facts before you do that. You should have facts in case now just what somebody said, and you should research what you're doing and know what you're talking about before you put out things, because you can ruin a person's reputation in the community, like and I think if some people would hold them accountable for that and start sueing them, you'd stop that you really would, But I don't. I don't know. I just don't know. I just think, like for me, I think about when I think about the media, I think it should be an unbiased fact. It should be factual, it should be facts. Right, and if you mess up, own it, own it. Yeah, you had owned it. When do you think they're going to own the fact that what they report on for the last two or three years as well. I don't watch them, so I don't know. I don't know what they do anymore. I just well, they haven't said what you said. No, I'm just telling you I don't. I don't watch them. I just I'll go to relative's house and I'll be up there and there I turn it that. I tell them to turn that off. I'm not gonna watch it. It's just and my everybody in my family and was friends pretty much the same field, the same with them. It's the same politics. Politics can ruin a lot of it. I'm not a politician, right, I'm not a politician. And I didn't get in anybody's pocket. I didn't. I didn't get anybody's pocket. I can't say that we are the other people. I wouldn't in anybody's pocket. If if somebody big got stopped for drunk driving, they gotta take it. They got locked up. I had relatives to get speed tickets. Members have family members got speed ticket. I had family members got locked up. That didn't change the thing, you know. I mean, that's the way it is, you know. And I never called one of my deputies and told them to get rid of a summons or anything. I never did that, uh and unforced. And you know, I had people that say they voted for me and gave me money for contributions, and I said, you wanted me to do my job, didn't you you know? And so you think, based on your experience with law enforcement running as the sheriff, you do have those people that give money and then expect something return later. Oh absolutely. I I just think the hard people. I had companies that gave me money and these persons dead and gone. And I loved him like a friend. But he didn't want anything for what did He didn't ask for nothing, But you know, but some people do. Yeah, there's an expectation. So talk a little bit about what it's like like when you walked out of the office for the last time at the Sheriff's office. What was that like for you? I felt like it almost was like you felt like you gained wings and you're ready to fly out of there. Well it felt good, but it was it was different too. I worked my whole life, you know, that was my life, right, forty years of work, and I worked other jobs pillar with my uncles and contractors and stuff, you know. But I'm talking about a job to support my family and whatever. I did that my whole life basically, So it was kind of, uh, it was. It was kind of scary. I guess what you want to call it. You know what am I gonna do tomorrow? I ain't got to I ain't gotta have a police call. I had a police call in my yard for years, you know what I mean? And uh now I don't. But uh it was a relief though I could lay down and not where break the phone used. I used to hate the phone to ring because you knew something about it, southing bad. It happened when the phone rung at your house at late at night. It was somebody's hurt, somebody's did or somebody's been hurt seriously or whatever. Old one of your people's hurt. Yeah, So like as a as a sheriff, as you go through that, I just think it'd just be extremely difficult to be the one that is ultimately responsible for all that, and it had to be a relief not to have that responsibility. It was. I'm very fortunate that. I was. I felt like good friends with all the sheriffs in the area. We were all very close and uh and the chiefs too, and we worked with everybody and got along with everybody. I thought that was a big part of everything, as far as I could reach out and call somebody and I'd have resources coming from everywhere in the state. Police was just absolutely incredible to They always there for me and anything I needed. So what do you think at the end of your eight years, what would you say your legacy was at the Sheriff's office and amors you got it accredited. What else do you think there was for you? That's a big question, you would I mean the accreditation was the top of my list. I remember the night I got it and the board was recognized us, and then people from the agency was there that gives us accreditation. And you were there. I lived you know, filapsing and you were there too, and I told work at night, I said, this is it for me, buddy, And he said, what do you mean. I said, that's just what I promised that i'd get done, and this is what I set my goal. We Oh, no, you're gonna run again. I said, no, I'm not. I didn't leave because anybody or anybody beat me. I think I could have beat any of them, I know, but I just didn't want to. I was done. Would your service? I'm done. I did what I wanted to do, and by the grace of guard I got the opportunity of service. Sheriff. I'm very lucky, humble, tackle to death, just happy happy. So let's go back a little bit. There's a couple of things I'd like to cover with you. I'm biased, obviously, but what about your canine program. I felt like you we had. We had a great we had a great program. Uh. And I really was. Of course, I was a former can down handler, so I was pro cane down anyway. And we had a we had a lot of dogs, and we had, you know, one for every shift, and and a lot of times we were going to other ages is helping them all the time, you know. And uh, and I was canine is a very important tool to a police department. In a Surest department, they really are I mean, you got they can do everything, they really can. They're forcing. I mean when I was trained the first time, I remember the guy was telling me, said, a dog, if he could talk, he could tell you when you cook chicken, you walk into your house at night time, he could tell you having chicken and it's gonna have a garlic, salt, butter and all this stuff and the chicken. If they could talk, you know, the thoses are that good, you know, it's just amazing. And I remember on calls where people were tied to the skies drugs with moth balls. I mean, I've had actual grease packed and kilos of cocaine the dog found, you know. I mean it's just it's such amazing coffee. You can't you can't fool them like that. But they're human, do I mean like human too. They feel bad some days and they make mistakes too, you know, and that always it's not always an one day. It always seems like the off days are on the days you have to certify that. Yeah, oh god, I used to be I I remember one of those days. So I shouldn't tell him myself, but it was the first one. I was down in Portsmouth and this dog was just succeptually good. And I walked into a room and the guy had rode on the chalkboard. He knew I was nervous this crap, you know, and he rode on the wall. There's no drugs in this room or something in one room. And I went in in DAGs and running room and he's I done, got him pinpoint checking everything, and uh, the dog wouldn't find anything. And he's he got to call it. You gotta call it blank. And that's a big thing to say blank, because if you miss something miss, you're gone, you know. I said this, there's nothing in this room. So we go to the next room and were running things and it's old school. It's abandoned, so it's no furniture and whatever. It's a desk there, it's a sink on the wall. The old schools had sinks on the wall like kids would wash their hand, you know. And so it was a cocaine sitting on the sink air and with a running room and dog and I'm staying there with him. He said, what do you stay with this room, and I says, I don't think it's nothing. In the I don't, I don't think it's nothing. And the dogs cherking me to the can. I said the camp he said, you lucky, said you're lucky. You trust your dog and you wash your dog. And but it was just, you know, it's just amazing that the things I learned with that dog, and uh my god, he was just exceptional. He was a good one. So talk about your last crazy, last crazy dog. I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you an intro to this, uh full disclosure. Uh. We went to a you brought the guy that trained that dog, came out here and did a seminar, and I think we sent four people to the er. My dog bit somebody through the hand, somebody else's dog bit a leg or something. We had four four er visits. And I distinctly remember the instructor saying the guy in the bite suit, which was me for your dog with your dog was like a like a spring. Yeah he was a Tasmanian devil. Yes, yeah, I remember. And uh the instructions were handlers stand and still the decoy will walk into you. So it was it was a bite on the It was a bite on the chest right there, right there, and that dog bit me right at the top of the neck, his nose, and you were so excited hard you were like, I was like, get him off of me, get him off of me, and you were just laughing and you were. I'll never forget that either, by the fact it's a video somewhere that. Because I remember you squealing like he's an ass eater, he's an ass sater, and I was like, you need to get him off of me. I can feel his we knows he's going to detach any time and gonna bite me in the neck. That dog, he told me said, I had him right there. People didn't realize what you have to do train these dogs. They think you'd be You know, you have to You're surviving, right you let you let him rule you. He gonna rule you. He's gonna eat you up. And this dog was down in the same semino and I ain't gonna say the word. He said, that dog's gonna f you up. And uh, I had him up by the thing right here and he's looking rain and face me like and I'm trying to telling I'm gonna get you if you don't listen to me, you know. And uh, but that was the hardest dog I've had my life. He was bad, he was he was he was the need right then. He was bad, but he wanted to get, you know, apprehensions, so bad that heap run path or track where the other one was just so good. He was just I think they always say that you have one dog, and you really have and I know Hammer was that for me. Bedford Like every other dog I've had then I enjoyed. But that one right there. Too much to it. Yeah, because you're it's like a car. It's like your favorite car. So talk a little bit about that. I know that's something that you really enjoy talking about. So now that you've retired, talk about what todays look like. I built me a nice man cave shop. I have a shop, but I built another big one right beside it. And uh, but when people talk about building stuff, they don't know e W virus version of building stuff. When you build stuff, you do it all yourself, and you do it top of the level. Well, I try to. I'm I have people do I've seen I've seen the pictures. I've had guys do machine work and stuff like that, and I I let a guy put them together for me recently, just what they call a long block and uh and I've been messing with it now. I bought a truck just to have an extra one. I didn't need it, but I had to have something to do white. Yeah, everything all all my my family people always talk to me about that, even my daughters, my sons, my sisters, my brothers, everybody's their vehicles are white. It's crazy. I've never it's crazy. My and my and my hot rod, my my show cars is blue, right, and my motorcycles are orange and stuff like that. And Shannon's her vehicles room. She says she definitely don't want a white one. Not getting a white one now. But uh we uh, I don't know what it is. It's just all I mean really, it's probably about twenty different vehicles, all of us got white. It's crazy. So talk about what what it so? What is what is it like while you're trying to be a sheriff, trying to build drone garage and getting into the way you wanted? What was that like for you? Shannon tells me, I'm OCD. She says, I set my mind saying no, I can't stop. Even when we was building to garage, you know, I went home because it was just one of the more prefab metal buildings, and I went in and studied it and UH insulated it. And but you put some beautiful wall, I did. I put some rough cut. I had a friend owns a saw meal. I put rough cut sawtmeal board in to make it look nice, you know, because I stared him. My girl works nice shift, and so do you working on your cars. Well, when I stay at the in the garage all day, when she comes in in the morning, she's going to bed, She's going to sleep all day. And so you know, if I'm in the house, she hit a hardwood floors creaking, you know, I mean, and all that stuff. So I stay in the shop all day. I go out there and I stay all day long. And I had several good friends of serfs and asked me to come to work for him when I retired, you know, come to a resource afo. Whatever's man, I ain't giving that the top see to go be a resource office. You know, nothing against them. I'm just I'm done. No. You So how close did you finish the garage to when you were retired. Oh, the garage was finished. It was there, was finished. It was finished. When I read the lift there, Yeah, I'd put that in. One of the deputies helped me put that in. We went and picked it up at Virginia Beach and brought it back and. We put that in. The last car ip you oft the hot thirty seven. I hadn't. I hadn't finished that yet. I took a motor out there and they had a vight chevelet three fifty mote in and I wanted to put an ls over in it, which is technical. It's a little bit different, a whole lot harder to work on. But anyway, I put one of those in it, and uh. I used to ride the motorcycle all the time, but a lot of my friends have died out and my best friend died of cancer, kind of killed it. I hadn't rode it one time last year, so I don't ride it anymore like I used to. But so you get to work on your trucks, you get to apply that. How does like that compare to like when you're as as a sheriff, all the things that like you see that need to get done. I think one of the hardest things for you was like delegating because you got so used to doing it yourself, so. It was hard. It was hard to tell other people to go and and and and Plus the vision you have, you want everybody to have the same vision you have. And you wanted it to be done right, you know. And that was a big thing you. I had a project. I'd said, tell you to do it, and you go do it, you know, And you had the determination to do it right. You was gonna get it done, and you did. And I mean I'm not. Yeah, you did a lot of people will. I don't know what the world. I don't know if it's you, al, I don't know what feelings. But it's feelings. It's feelings. It's not it's dedication to a mission and feeling your feelings instead of s. Brown used to tell me about you all the time too, And then he had a lot of he still has a lot of praise for you all the time. He gave me a lot of months off of that pay. Yeah, but I but I say, what I've earned them. You've done it. When you messed up with me and I did the same thing to you, you took it. You said, hey, I did it, and that's that means a lot. Sonn. You know, you got to do you got to treat everybody the same, and you got to do that, and that that's been a lot. You know when you got punished, you got punished for me. I got punished a lot. Yeah, I mean I know you yeah, but you made a mistake and you and you owned it that right, you know, And that's that's if everybody would do that, it'd be a whole easier place to do. Uh, to talk about your So when you have a vision, like I think, what's really hard is going from the ranks where like I think that's one of the first things. You told me when I got promoted. You told me you really don't have any friends anymore. You will everybody when you became sheriff. It's the same thing. People think you're gonna you've them something. Not people your employees. You know, they were great friends with you. They think they can get balle stuff and they do whatever they want. Yeah, they do what they want to do. And uh, you know we had rules and and then and and plus you want to I always thought it was really important to recognize people at the achievements before a while became sheriff. If you got. Promoted, you didn't know about it. We had a little room. We had a little drop down boxes where our papers were in and their stuff was the deputies room, and of course we had nice The former sheriff fixed this for uce where we had a nice building and uh, nice offices. Each each deputy had a. Little room to go in. It's four different cubicles there and the lieutenants and you had you know, your own space. Well you didn't have that one was there. But I remember when we had promotions. People got promoted, all you didn't know about it. You looking in buckxet, congratulations so and so on your promotion to sergeant. And you see your lapels inside the box. Let's how you need that promote? Yeah, And I mean, you know, we we recognized that I wanted to have it a thing where your wife could come and get surely come and pen those pins on. Meant something. You had a pitchure with the sheriff or whoever there besides you, and we could have the community of families. They have to recognize you. And that was one of the big things I think we did too to try to make it better and we did it for quite a while. I've heard I don't think they. Do it anymore. But anyway, well, let's s I think one of the things that I would just like to say to you is you were You are, by a very definition of what you do is a very humble servant. Uh, you feed people, You do all these different things. I think about all the service that you you know, shop with a cop. You were out there. We won't go into what happens when somebody says something nasty to them. You won't go into that. But it does make it it irritated, Yes it does. It irritates, but I feel like it. I do that. I do that name. I don't change that now because I'm not the sheriff. But you have always been a yeah. And so what do you think about these people that are in leadership that are there to help themselves instead of. Well, I did fundraisers for formal colleagues that I work with, and they did I had stays four colon cancer back when I was a lot younger and I and they did a fundraiser for me, friends did I don't never forget that and they raised me like it was probably eighteen thousand. Someone like that dollars and when I come out, I didn't have any copay. I paid it all off. I was able to pay that bill off. And I was a young deputy, had a kids, you know, two kids, and whatever. I wasn't full of money. You know, back then, we didn't make nothing. I went to work in nineteen eighty four. My salary nineteen eighty five, No. Eighty four, eleven thousand, seven hundred and ninety dollars a years my salary, and that was probably one checkers share. Well, no, it won't that much, I tell you what it was. But but it did get a lot better. It was a lot better. But uh, and that was one of the things that sheriff I went to the board and I says, you got to do better, you know, we got to do better. These guys on welfare, you know, some of. Them on welfare and they don't have any money, and uh, I wasn't. Didn't you have a you just recovered from your hip surgery when you came in and asked for Oh, I just had had my hip replaced on Friday, and my girl went crazy. You know, of course you don't supposed to be an it was. It was one of time, and uh, I got one of the deputies come get me, and I took a walker and it's like to kill me to walk out of that house, to walk here and go to that board meeting that night and ask for more money and for our deputies to get Sarah's and we did. They were good. Well there, I think there. I think when I left, when we left, it's probably one of the higher to pay the departments. We were. We were and that was unheard of it, that was that was your that was you well, that was the board was was really good towards at first. And uh then that's that's politics too. When you get on the Bay side of politics and uh, people asked you to adorse them and you wouldn't endorse them because of things that's said about you, and it it it turned to war down too. I didn't. I didn't. I knew I couldn't get anything anymore, you know. Uh, But how does that make you feel? Like? From your standpoint, I feel like you're very ethical in what you do, and you have a reputation. I feel like a lot of people that are in politics, include to some of the people you just mentioned. It doesn't matter if somebody says something ugly about them because they know they're unethical. Well, well, well I look at things like that. I don't I don't want to get at that part. But uh, the board people have to run on one precinct basically in they precinct they live in to wind as a serf for the Commwealth Attorney, I want every single precinct both times. And I'm not bragging, I'm very humble to that. But you but you and you live up to supposed to be the standards that you say you're gonna be and and that's that's that's I wish all of our politicians would do that from the top to the bottom. Uh, just don't forget where you come from. Treat everybody the same. Right, But what does it I mean, like, honestly, what does it feel like when you know the truth and you know your ethics and you know what you've done to hear somebody lie about you like to. Have Well, it hurts, it hurts, and it's and it's that. But they are politicians and that's what they are. Is that really an out for somebody that because you're a politician, you don't have. To be honest. But that's all about integtive it. Yep, it's all about tell them they can't. Who holds them accountable? We should, We should, the citizens should. So that's where they don't they they're not held that they should be in jailed itself. They should be in jail, should have been convicted. But that's just the way things are, you know. And I'm not there tell the. Throwstones. I did my time. I've done, thankful, very humble to the citizens that gave me the opportunity to do it. And well, I would like to be I'm probably not the first one to tell you this, but congratulate the fact that you made the commitment. You just assigned Chris Persons to that case, and as a result of your efforts, even though there was mistakes made throughout, you still were on the right end of doing it the right way. That was very I was very excited and thankful, prayed a lot nice about that case. But he is a wonderful individual, I tell you what. I'm so thankful the Lord send him my way. Yeah, and the rest of them, and the rest of them, the rest of the guys and ladies that work with him Clays dedication to to to making it get help he get fixed to and uh, it was a big thing. But thank god, thank God above it. We hold him accountable. So I had to feel good. That's feel good every time. A lot of all my shoulders. Man, they really did so you could go out. So now that that's all done, do you feel like you can like move past it and have your head held high? Held my head high anyway? But it does help. It does knowing that that all of the things that people were saying it wasn't true. And I kept telling them it'd come out at the end when the trial, you'll see what really happened. And I think that's what's crazy about it is it really hadn't come out though they even though they had a live trial. Yeah. True. Then in the media, they're gonna report what they want to report. They report, they put things in there that they want the people to push forward. And that's like politicians do to try to get somebody elected. They do the same thing, don't they. They do the exact same thing. They don't say everything, and they'll cut speeches and show points that we if I messed up, they would cut that show the bad part when I messed up, and not the rest of it. You know, it's just I am who I am, you know, I. Just I think for you, I think it has to be a huge weight to know that even though you got blamed for everything and had to keep your mouth closed about it and did the right thing, didn't put put stories that weren't true out there as a result of your patients resiliency and your decision to put the best of the best on the case and the work of the commalst attorney's office. Oh absolutely, attorney, not because Lios who he is. He's acceptable young man, he's very smart, and Ambrose too. I mean they both worked hard, tiresly on that case. And I know in spite a lot of people, right, I know, I know that the weeks coming up to that trial. I didn't stay involved in it, but I know and talking to my family, Uh, he wasn't there nice and he was gone and leaving it in the mornings at five in the morning, and that he was working very hard in that case. Well, they had to work in spite of that, oh yeah, of the other people, Oh yeah, And I think that. That's the bad part. You know, you want you want somebody to be a common attorney. It doesn't have any any law enforcement experience, and all this force criminal cases. I mean, it's crazy. It's just control. That's that's all one of this, that's all it is. And uh and if you got that, you got the whole county. You know, it's just but all we got people like it is the Lord to see through all of it. In the end. There's always gonna be trials and tribulations about everything, but in the end, God's still in control. Yes he is. Well, it's a good spot to end with. And like I said, I really appreciate you taking the time. I appreciate the fact that you gave me an opportunity to come work for you. I'm glad you came out. You've done a good job for me. You've always been a hard worker son, and I'm just glad you're going on with your life and you finally found you a good person to live life with. She's exceptional. She is all right. Thanks, thank you so
